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  5. "היא לא אוכלת בשר וגם לא אוכל…

"היא לא אוכלת בשר וגם לא אוכלת עוף."

Translation:She does not eat meat and does not eat chicken either.

July 30, 2016



What is the point of this sentence? Isn't עופ considered בשר as well? Or בשר means other types of meats except עופ? I am sorry if this is a dumb question, I am not really an expert in כשרות. Thank you!


In hebrew meat usually means "beef", while "עוף" (chicken) means chicken meat. This has nothing to do with kosher meat btw. Source: hebrew is my native language


Just like we say in Egypt. Meat just means beef :)


In Jordan, too. I was puzzled to discover that: in Italian we make a (rather obvious) distinction between fish and meat, but meat includes everything from chicken to lamb to beef to pork. My Jordanian friends only used لحم for red meet, minus pork obviously, and chicken was "dajaj". Go figure... :)


Do you know if Israeli vegetarians and vegans also use this distinction? Or maybe they use the word "בשר" also for chicken (and fish etc.)?


Well, those people, who wimp out of a real vegetarian diet, follow a תְּזוּנָה פְלֶקְסִיטַרִיאָנִית.


In the תורה the word בשר is routinely translated as flesh. It was used for anything outsude of fish including humans. Its bizarre how much was changed to make modern hebrew.


How about lamb?


This is a great question, and yes this sentence seems very odd to me since I think we all consider chicken to be meat. For kashrut chicken is meat, much to my husband’s frustration (“come on, everyone knows the chicken didn’t have a lactating mother so why can’t you eat it with dairy!”). And then fish doesn’t count as meat. I don’t know why.


The fact that chicken (and all poultry, in fact) is considered to be בשרי, meat, in terms of כשרות is not a biblical ordinance but a rabbinic one (שולחן ערוך יורה דעה 87:3).
For more information on the laws of כשרות pertaining to בשר וחלב see https://www.star-k.org/articles/kashrus-kurrents/706/meat-and-dairy-a-kosher-consumers-handbook/#:~:text=8.,Shulchan%20Aruch%20YD%2087%3A3.&text=Fleishig%20means%20meat.,before%20he%20may%20eat%20dairy.


I have heard that in certain times and places, fish have actually been considered fruits or vegetables.


Well, we catholics have taken this idea from St. Thomas Aquinas, who wrote in part II of the Summa Theologiae: the Church forbade those who fast to partake of those foods which both afford most pleasure to the palate, and besides are a very great incentive to lust. Such are the flesh of animals that take their rest on the earth, and of those that breathe the air and their products, such as milk from those that walk on the earth, and eggs from birds. This excludes fish from the list of (tasty) meat and it is a short jump to add it to the non-animal part of the diet.


I'm also a native Hebrew speaker, living in Israel. I encounter some contexts in which בשר is not meant to include chicken. But in the vast majority of contexts it does. I think that when I was younger I encountered the former more often. But maybe it's just me.


my translation: she does not eat meat and also she does not eat chicken. The new word is:וגם , I tried to use it. Why is my translation wrong? ( I am german )


Should really be "and doesn't eat chicken either". I've just changed it to be the best translation. Yours is also available as a translation but isn't very natural in English.


Would be better to translate it as "and neither does she eat chicken".


I respectfully disagree that וגם is best rendered into idiomatic English as "either." It seems to me as a native English speaker that "and also does not eat chicken" is perfectly idiomatic.


I don't that there is a "comfortable" way to translate this phrase, since as far as I can think of, I've never been want to phrase any such sentence this way, even when one does not eat either of two distinct foods (but perhaps that's just me). But for an easier and more natural flow of sentence, without compromising the equivalent word order, I think "nor" would be an appealing word choice. Normally it would be "neither/nor," but the context provides a pretty strong implication for "neither."

"She does not eat meat, nor does she eat chicken."


תודה רבה !


I used your answer but still got it wrong. It seems not to accept English contractions, which is bad because we use them all the time.


I answered the same way.


chicken is poultry


Why isn’t another translation: She doesn’t eat meat and also doesn’t eat chicken


This is acceptable as well. I just answered that way myself. They are just saying it's more natural in English to use either at the end of the sentence instead of also at the beginning. (And as a native American English speaker, I agree with that opinion). But I'm learning Hebrew too, so I went with be literal instead of the natural.


The question is whether בשר refers to various mammals or just specifically to cows. In English the more general term is "meat" and the more specific term is "beef."

(Oy, I think I just answered my own question. [never mind])


I wrote beef and it was wrong


I guess beef is בשר,בקר can be also lamb, venison or pork.


Well, if people say יֵשׁ לָ֫נוּ בָּשָׂר וְעוֹף, they often mean beef and chicken. Or they make it as a distinction between בָּשָׂר אָדֹם red meat and בָּשָׂר לָבָן white meat. On the other hand, Hebrew does not make a distinction between meat and flesh (בְּשַׂר־אָדָם).


It is so hard to translate into English if you do not speak English as your mother tongue. Why can't I learn Hebrew as a German native speaker???


My brain does not translate וגם as "either" but as "also" despite getting the answer correct, isn' t גם the literal meaning of also? So I understood it to mean "She does not eat meat (as in red meat) and also does not eat chicken."


neither = וגם לא She doesn't eat meat (and) neither does she eat chicken.


Checkmate, vegans!


Question... If I was talking to a friend, I would say this sentence as: “she doesn’t eat either meat or chicken.” Could I say the same in Hebrew or would it sound odd? I was thinking: היא לא אוכלת בשר וגם עוף. Could I say it like that in Hebrew? Or am I better off saying the whole thing?


You can't with וגם, but you can definitely say it with the natural parallel to "or": היא לא אוכלת בשר או עוף.


Thank you :)


I'm just a learner, but I think "neither...nor" in Hebrew is done with לא twice and you don't have to repeat the verb. I don't think you can use the construction לא ...וגם for "neither...nor." My understanding is that double לא is obligatory for "neither...nor." The "either...or" construction can use או twice (formally) or just have one או with the second element (colloquially). Sources: Esther Raizen, Modern Hebrew for Beginners: A Multimedia Program... (Second edition; Univ of Texas, 2015), 109-110; Glinert, Modern Hebrew: An Essential Grammar, 157. There may be variations we can learn about from a Hebrew speaker.


So how would you say it as “neither... nor”? היא לא אוכלת בשר ולא עוף I’m afraid I don’t follow how you can use לא twice. Or at least where to place it. Any input would be quite welcome.


Well, I would use לֹא even thrice: הִיא לֹא אוֹכֶ֫לֶת לֹא בָּשָׂר וְלֹא עוֹף.


That makes sense. Thank you! Also, as always — thank you for including the niqqud!!


All the following can work:

  1. היא לא אוכלת לא בשר ולא עוף
  2. היא לא אוכלת בשר ולא עוף
  3. היא לא אוכלת בשר או עוף
  4. היא לא אוכלת בשר ועוף

(Of course some of them have a different English sentence that would be a closer literal translation.)

I agree with IngeborgHa that the first sounds the best and clearest, but all of them sound to me reasonably natural and clear.

Well, the last one works only given the lower likelihood of the interpretation "she does not eat meat-with-chicken". Compare היא לא אוכלת בשר וחלב, which would surely be interpreted as "she does not eat them together, but would eat them separately". (Same in English "She does not eat meat and chicken", I think.)

And, well, the third could be used in another meaning: you start with the assertion היא לא אוכלת בשר, and then you lose confidence about the thing she doesn't eat, so you add או עוף - that is, she avoids one of the two, you're not sure which. But in a normal intonation, the only reasonable interpretation is neither-nor. (Same in English "She does not eat meat or chicken", I think)


Thank you. So helpful, as always.

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