why are both indication of you (titeket, and l(ek)) used? one would not be enough?
Then you wouldn't know whether it's one person or several that you know; adding teged or titeket makes ismerlek unambiguous.
Plus you can add pronouns for emphasis: "It's you that I love".
I think he is asking why do we still have -l- when we have explicit pronoun in the sentence as well
The -lek form always needs to be used when 'I' is the subject and 'you' the direct object.
So, there's no distinction in the verb conjugation between titeket and teged? It uses ismerlek either way?
It should also be ok to say I know you guys because in English, we often will add guys to the word you to indicate more than one person. We use this regardless if it is males or females.
Is Titeket not plural and Ismerlek singular? I cannot get both words together. Or is it both ismerlek for singular and plural you? Why not téged imerlek?
Yes, the object of the I-you form (ismerlek) may be either singular you, téged, or plural you, titeket.
So if I wished to stress the plural you, but also stress that "I" knew them, would that simply be 'én titeket ismerlek'?
The word order can be tricky as three words can come out to several different meanings.
'Titeket én ismerlek' where the én is stressful, it means 'I am the person who know you (and nobody else)'
'Ismerlek én titeket' is a cynical sentence, and now this sentence means 'I know the type of people like you' and also 'I have heard (mostly bad) news about you'
'Titeket ismerlek én' means 'You are the two people who I know and not any other pair of two'
And so on... :D Be careful.
Yes, very good. :)
Save for the fact that ismer is 'to know', and szeret is 'to love'.
Ah damn, I know that, just wrote the wrong thing! Probably szeretlek was the previous sentence.
Shall we request Duo to accept Texas English? Then the you-form is "y'all" whenever it's plural. Makes it much easier to learn & translate ;-)
I have a counter-suggestion and propose that we revert to using "thou" and "thee" for 2nd person singular and leave "you" as the plural form. :D
I know English has problems with making a difference between singular and plural you, but I wouldn't address it like that. It sounds a bit awkward saying that to two people. :)
For "all of you" the Hungarians have the neat word mindannyiótokat. Among others.
Both word orders are sensible. Ismerlek titeket emphasizes the verb (more like... "Hey, I know you") whereas Titeket ismerlek emphasizes "you" - like perhaps, "I don't know them, but I know YOU"
I put "I know you guys" to distinguish between plural and singular and it marked it as wrong. I've noticed that this course doesn't distinguish between plural and singular "you" as much as it should. A shame, I think.
That is because English does not distinguish between singular and plural in the second person - and has not for hundreds years. When the distinction existed we had thou and you (and thee and ye). "You guys" is slang and non-standard English.
Well, you guys may be considered slang, but to say it is non-standard or acceptable English would not be accurate. English is not a formal language, especially American English. So if the point of this exercise is to give the English translation or equivalent, then you guys is totally acceptable. I mean, think about it, the informal was used in the Hungarian version. So, it is totally acceptable to use you guys in English.
The informal second person is NOT slang. It is used for interactions with intimates - good friends and family.
I did not say it was slang. BUT in American English, the only way to correctly convey that you are talking to more than one person, you have to add something with you. Depending on what part of the country you live in, the standard acceptable English could be "you guys", "you all", y'all". English is not a static language. It is evolving. Things that may have not been accepted in the past are now accepted. So no American native English speaker or even English teacher would tell me I used improper English if I said "I know you guys".
In fact, if I were to ask you how would you translate that sentence from English to Hungarian, how would you say it, Judit?
With no other information - "ismerlek".
However people speaking English use "you" (without qualifiers) every day. Singular or plural is by context. Just like when a Hungarian use "ő" there is no information as to whether or not the person addressed is male or female.
If translating into Maori there is no information whether "we" is "maua" (myself and another), "taua" (myself and you sing), "tatou" (myself and you pl) or "matou" (myself and the others). And translating back, all four words are just "we". That's what languages are like.
Judit, I am not saying that it is incorrect to say I know you. I am saying that you cannot say that to say I know you guys is incorrect. That is my point. When you are translating from one language to another, you have to look at the meaning overall and think about what are the WAYS--often there are many of them--that are acceptable in that language to say it. You are too dogmatic thinking that there is only ONE way to say that sentence in English. If you are a native English speaker, you should know that.
I would say 'you guys' is colloquial, rather than slang. It's fairly standard across all age, etc. groups, has been around for a long time, and is the way a lot of American English speakers disambiguate between the plural and singular. It is a useful distinction that we lost! People find they need it, so use 'you guys', and in certain regions y'all and youse.
Could Duolingo find a way to be more specific about numbers when it comes to the second person?
(Generally speaking, about this Hungarian course - that particular sentence "Titeket ismerlek" not being that confusing for the student but... ^^)
Using "tricks" maybe ? For example a sentence being : - I know you => "(téged) ismerlek" and the other one : - I know you (guys) : "(titeket) ismerlek" ?
This is a general issue with any English-based course. Duolingo has been at it for over five years now and they haven't felt the need to change that, so I don't think they will do such a thing. The creators of the individual courses might, but I haven't seen that either yet. (Not that I've seen many courses at all.)
I think that's not the goal of Duolingo anyway. Their premise is just that you practice translating natural sentences without context, and any resulting proper sentence should be an acceptable translation. I think Duo is trusting the learner to figure out rules and pitfalls of the languages, and in doubt they can just ask.
What pronouns are available in various languages vary quite a bit - even for second person. Not only singular and plural but formal/informal, masculine/feminine, and dual. English cannot distinguish and adding "you two" or "you girl" makes the English clumsy. And personally I abhor forcing the "you guys" construction on learners. Generally speaking DL will accept either singular or plural Hungarian for the English "you". Where it doesn't, report it.
Frankly, Judit, what you say is clumsy English or abhorrent is, as you said, merely your personal opinion and nothing more. It's possible that people in England would agree with you, but by far, most Americans would not agree with you at all. What you call clumsy and abhorrent is totally natural; acceptable; and grammatically correct in American English. With learning other languages, you have to be less black and white and clinging to absolutes and realize there can often be several correct ways to say the exact same thing.
Can you point me to a formal American English grammar book that endorses this usage? I don't deny it might be street usage in some places (but Brits and Kiwis also have informal usage which would never be taught as standard English) but would you used this in a formal, written context? Some people here are not native English speakers and I don't think they should be pushed into informal usage which may be to their detriment.
Thank You judit294350 for your last sentence. It is really very difficult for us non natives, when non standard English is used. An I think, we are a lot of people, who have no idea of the different types of real spoken English all over the World. Many of us have to learn with standard school english, because there is no direct way. It is not helpful for us, if we get mixed up with different styles of English all over the world. I would like to learn Hungarian, with Standard English, like in the reverse course, or Italian or English for Germans. It is a special problem in this course with English and I am sorry, that the discussion went into a non helpful way for non natives. I vote definitely for standard English and am happy for every correction in this way, including myself.
Judit, you prove my point exactly. You keep talking about the formal and informal. First of all, it is worth pointing out that titeket IS informal, NOT formal. Secondly, as I said to you some months ago regarding this same sentence, with language, there are frequently SEVERAL different ways to say something and all can be acceptable. In all honesty, the way you talk about this makes you sound extremely arrogant in trying to prove you are RIGHT and everyone else is WRONG...or maybe I should say all the rest of us are ABHORRENT and CLUMSY. Do you realize how condescending all that sounds? I told you before, you are not incorrect in how you answered the question. To say "I know you" is totally correct. However, it is also totally acceptable, especially if the original is also written in the informal, to use the informal "you guys". Having lived in Hungary for 10 years, I learned that when translating you have to search for ways to say something to best convey what you mean. It worked both ways. When Hungarians translated things from English to Hungarian, they often would ask for clarification as to what was my intent in my English statement. Often times, the literal translation would be accurate, but not always convey the full intent of what was being said. In fact, for me, the ONLY reason I would use "you guys" in this example instead of just "you" is because it is the INFORMAL in Hungarian. If it were written in the formal, I, like you, would have written "I know you.". But because it was said in the informal, it conveys the meaning of it is an informal setting, so in American English in the informal setting, it is totally acceptable to write or say "you guys". Does that mean you HAVE to say you guys? No. But it IS a way that you can say it to make the meaning even clearer that it is an informal setting. My point is that when translating between languages, you have to let go of viewing everything so black and white and precise. Allow yourself and others to breathe, to be different from you. Language is not mathematics or a science. It is a living thing that evolves over time. It is much more important to be relevant than textbook accurate all the time. Is your insistence in this really about people not getting "pushed into informal usage which may be to their detriment" or about your need to be right? Can you not just accept that there is more than one way to be right when it comes to language?
When I wrote my question, I had that issue in mind actually: as English is not my native language (but the Hungarian course only exists in English...), it makes the learning process a bit more complicated => trying to get a language and it's logic, through another language which has also it's own logic, that last one not more natural to you than the previous one... ^^