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https://www.duolingo.com/KJP

Why even keep the "looks wrong" button?

KJP
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I feel like the downvote button is an artifact of an earlier Duolingo sentence rating system. Personally, I don't ever touch the downvote button now. Even when someone looks like they've accidentally hit enter, I just go ahead and finish the sentence. Now that I'm a better translator, I don't want to discourage someone trying immersion; I'd just rather fix it.

Who uses use this button, and in what situation do you feel you need to rate as "looks wrong" rather than try to edit? Just interested to know in what situations the community finds this useful (or if it doesn't).

4 years ago

22 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/Dessamator
Dessamator
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I think you are barking at the wrong tree, what you seem to be really concerned with is with the -5 penalty that is caused by using the 'looks wrong' button. From that perspective what really needs to go away is the tier system, not the looks wrong button.

There are many valid uses for the looks wrong button, such as for statistic purposes, it is good to see how often do advanced users click looks wrong, and how often others agree with them. This could also be useful for the purposes of quality, one needs to be able to discern how many times has a sentence been deemed wrong before it was good enough.

When there was no penalty people happily clicked looks wrong, which means that is simple psychology that has taken ahold of people. This is probably caused by the need to be social and 'good' because when nobody knew its effects, nobody cared.

Personally, I use the downvote button as if there was no penalty, and that is really the way it was designed to be used, in my opinion. If the designers discovered that there was something wrong with the general use of the downvote button they would remove it, or change its effects.

To answer your question, it is kept simply because the button is extremely useful, for example, people may change a sentence that was upvoted 100 times, to a sentence that is downvoted 50 times, and this provides a way of measuring progress towards a translation.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/dreadpiratebly

So I started (and nearly finished) a treatise about how both you, Dessamator, and KJP have some good points, and was just wrapping it up and starting to offer some suggested changes to the tier system, when I remembered that it had been recently tweaked. At least, it was for me. Instead of the "looks wrong" button penalizing me with 5 downvotes, I just need to maintain a healthy ratio of upvotes to downvotes. From the description of how to advance in tiers:

"You advance to the next tier once you have at least 100 upvotes and at least 90% of your votes are positive."

I think this is a great way to keep the tier system (which has probably increased interest in immersion) and the downvote button (which almost certainly increases the quality of translations on average). It mediates between a few over-zealous downvoters and the desire to hold people accountable for sub-par translations.

I think the most important change we could make to the immersion section would be to have a window pop up with the immersion guidelines (something like this, which I have to say Dessamator, is awesome, by the way: http://www.duolingo.com/comment/984423 ), and make sure people have agreed to them before accessing articles (not every time, of course, just once). That way, everyone is aware that there are rules/standards governing translating, edits and downvotes. I know it took me weeks to stumble across the above link, and I regret all the uninformed translating I did before that. Does anyone know why immersion guidelines aren't required reading for would-be translators yet?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/KJP
KJP
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Thanks for sharing that link again—I'd seen it once before and was having trouble finding it again.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dessamator
Dessamator
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They aren't required reading because they are unofficial, and simply created by the community for the community. Linking to them would mean Duolingo agrees to it or sanctions it, which it doesn't. I believe they will never sanction it because of any errors that may be in a 'user created guide'.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/KJP
KJP
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Yeah, good point. I do almost wish Duolingo would offer a short immersion guideline, but maybe what we do with it is part of the experiment :)

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Dessamator
Dessamator
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Well, perhaps if more posts show up complaining about it, then it will happen. Many people complained about the voting system, and we now have some changes, so who knows. :)

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/KJP
KJP
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Yes, I guess it is simply that I think -5 is too harsh and discouraging to new learners. But then again, I like the tier system, and it has motivated me a great deal in the translation area. By the way, the link below with your guidelines for immersion, I think, should be the start to the "official immersion guide" dreadpiratebly suggests below. Someone linked me to it when I first had a question about immersion, and I thought it was really helpful. So, thanks!

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/856pm

If it is wrong, and quite wrong, I'll hit looks wrong, because it does. I do edit.

Also, it's for less experienced users who know it looks wrong but don't know why.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/KJP
KJP
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I feel like if you don't know why, it's kinda harsh to dock someone 5 points over it, but I appreciate your opinion and response!

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/856pm

Well, take, for example, a new user. They're reading along and they see the translation:

He take man the table.

Would you click "Looks Wrong" in this situation? That's what it's for: things that are blatantly wrong, not things that are a little off.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/KJP
KJP
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True, true—that definitely looks wrong, and a beginner can see that. I still would just edit, because I don't want to penalize someone who is struggling (or maybe writing something as crazy as that because they are trying to learn a new language from something that is their 2nd language).

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/johaquila
johaquila
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Someone who writes stuff like that has no business advancing a tier because they are not qualified. It's not about 'penalizing', it's about accurate assessment that later has consequences on other people. If you help someone who is struggling like that to advance to tier 5, say, they will be able to rate the translations of other tier 5 people, but tier 4 people won't be able to rate their translations. That's just weird.

Duolingo has several mechanisms to make you feel you are making progress, not all tied to actual measurable progress. I don't see why we should treat translator tiers the same way.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/KJP
KJP
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This is truly a great point. I guess I'd just assumed they'd never get upvotes, but if a title can get you an upvote, they eventually would advance.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Luscinda
Luscinda
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Not if I couldn't understand the original text to know that it was an incorrect translation rather than bad English. It could be a translation of some sort of pidgin or representation of bad use of the original language. There are many sentences that could look wrong if you haven't read the rest of the article, and I think a lot of people try to judge a line or two of text without reading the context.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/856pm

All in context, that quote would be clearly denoted. ... Besides, if the goal if to have fluent speakers through immersion, you would want to use the language correctly.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Luscinda
Luscinda
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So what do we then do about people who think that they are entitled to use it as a way to slap down people they don't like or to punish those who dare to take issue with their text, even when the material they downvote is demonstrably not wrong? There appears to be no sanction for this and if that is how the function is used, then far from adding something useful to statistics, it skews them badly.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/kassandra8286
kassandra8286
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KJP, I totally agree with your viewpoint. I have never seen a reason to use "Looks Wrong". I think it's too easy to abuse, and in my opinion doesn't serve any useful purpose or provide any benefit. Also, in the many Immersion articles I've participated in translating, I have yet to come across any of these notorious "gibberish" translations that keep getting cited as reasons to have a "Looks Wrong" button. I'm not saying there haven't been any, I'm sure there have, but I wonder if they are as prevalent as some would believe.

Clearly there are those who think differently, though, and we're not likely to change each other's minds.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/JessieKaye

Well I still think it's useful, but I agree, people should really stop hitting it so much because then it becomes a habit and they vote people down a lot.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/JazminG

I agree with you KJP, I find it very annoying when someone gives me a down vote in immersion, and the times it has happened were actually over small issues that I didn't think deserved a down vote. I am happy to see if someone revises something I translated and actually betters it,but I don't find the down vote constructive. I don't ever downvote people either, even when there are obvious mistakes in what they write but it is obvious they are putting effort into it. If it is true, as Dessamator says, that the downvote is useful for statistical purposes then maybe I would use it if there were no penalty involved (but it would still annoy me).

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Wusaweki
Wusaweki
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There are actually situations where you see that something can't be right but nevertheless you don't know the correct answer by yourself. I've used the "looks wrong" button two or three times for such sentences, just to mark them somehow, in the hope that someone else would find a better replacement. I haven't even been aware that I am "downvoting" someone else by pressing this button. Maybe this is because I'm rather new to DuoLingo, and I don't really care about getting or losing any points, instead I just want to learn and practice a new language. In my opinion the point awarding system should not lead to personal conflicts but is more intended to get statistical figures, what means that there will always be some random noise on the actual numbers. If the point system leads to envy and jealousy it distracts from the actual goals and so it should be changed.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/KJP
KJP
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Thanks for your input. If it's intended to get statistical figures, now I'm definitely not using it correctly to generate them. I'm not so worried about envy, per se—only discouragement. I am an instructor, and just feel with a voluntary learning system like this, you should be able to track progress, and most should feel like forward progress to keep the learner engaged. I think falling back that much when you are trying to participate in immersion could be demotivating.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/KJP
KJP
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Thank you everyone for your input on this discussion. I have changed my perspective on the downvote button a bit with all of the input from others. I will probably not use it as much as I should (maybe that's the reason it is a -5), but I do see its value in statistics now and allowing slow advancement to different translator tiers. I appreciate when a discussion makes me reevaluate my view, so thanks.

4 years ago