"A repülőgép ezek fölött a városok fölött repül."

Translation:The airplane is flying over these cities.

August 14, 2016

43 Comments
This discussion is locked.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Bilegdembe

Why are there strangely two fölött? I think the first one is redundant


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

It's the Hungarian thing to do.

If you have az "that" or ez "this" (or their plural forms), and the noun takes a postposition or case ending, then the az/ez takes that postposition or case ending, too - redundant but grammatically required.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JanaDzsana

I was wondering the same thing--is that correct Hungarian? And if so, why are both necessary?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

It's correct Hungarian, and both are required because that's how Hungarian does it.

(Why does English say "five apples", with a required plural ending on "apples" even though that's redundant given that "five" already says that there is more than one? Because that's just how English does it. Hungarian, on the other hand, doesn't: öt alma.)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MarciaTata

Thanks! that makes sense and helps with my incessant desire to plural after a number and get it wrong every time


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TabletSala

Please provide a Hungarian grammar referece with detailed explanation. Thanks!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/bethanne30

I am wondering the same thing.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JohnWeber786406

It kind of reinforces (and ties) the articles with their nouns.
A folyó mellett sétálok - I walk beside the river.
E Ez mellett a folyó mellett sétálok. - I walk beside this river.
Ezek mellett a folyók mellett sétálok. - I walk beside these rivers.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/chirelchirel

So if this was in singular, would it be "e fölött" instead of ezek fölött"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RyagonIV

Yes, "e fölött a város fölött." :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/chirelchirel

So I half understood the concept :D


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sherm0

what is wrong with the airplane flies over these cities?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

To me, "over these cities" implies movement starting on one side of the cities, with its midpoint directly above them, and ending at a point past the cities, while fölött does not have this movement meaning and only indicates that the flying takes place over/above the cities at all times.

Maybe "over" could be used in the "location, not direction" meaning as well, as long as you don't confuse yourself that fölött indicates this "from one side to the other" meaning (as in "he stepped over the dog").


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sherm0

Ok, so how do I say it if I do mean from one side to the other?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GGABI2

A repülőgép átrepül a város felett.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

I haven't got to that part yet :) It may be fölé but I'm not sure.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnCatDubh

Yeah. That’s not the issue. The issue is that it’s a crapshoot whether the present simple or progressive would be accepted.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/anonymityp

I think it's poor that there is no explanation in the notes about double folott...we can't just guess at the grammar rules.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Heroldnak

Yes there is...:

"Demonstratives and postpositions

Hungarian has one more complication in store for you. When you combine a demonstrative and a noun like ez a ház ‘this house’ with a postposition like mellett ‘next to‘, the resulting form is like with the case suffixes above:

emellett a ház mellett ‘next to this house’

afölött a kert fölött ‘above that garden’"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GGABI2

Sorry to correct you. But we write them separately in this case.

E mellett a ház mellett ‘next to this house’ A fölött a kert fölött ‘above that garden’

Emellett, amellett, efölött, afölött etc. are adverbs.

I'm too tired to go for a walk. Besides, it's raining. Túl fáradt vagyok, hogy sétálni menjek, emellett még esik is.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Heroldnak

Yes! You are right. I just copy-pasta-ied here. It is wrong there.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/anonymityp

Yes sorry I thought I had replied to my own comment but not sure where it's gone now! I saw that there was an explanation, although perhaps it's a design flaw (in my opinion) that these are presented as a kind of optional extra that you have to remember to read, rather than something that's integral to your learning.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Heroldnak

Dunno Anonymityp, I tend to face these like exercises to a lesson. Like in a book. =D


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/anonymityp

You're right, just as an interaction designer I can't help picking on this details :P


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kokoskoarl

According to my Hungarian girlfriend (who is from the Budapest area) the double között/elött/mögött is wrong. In Hungary (Budapest area) they use fölött only once in each sentence.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JohnWeber786406

There is an option to do that, but for the sake of grammar, it's left the way it is.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kokoskoarl

I am really sure by now that we are learning wrong Hungarian here. My girlfriend went to gymnasium after primary school and lateron did a bachelors degree and she never used the double fölött in written form either. So far I was really happy with what Ive learned thanks to Duolingo, but this should definitely be changed please.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Judit294350

I studied Hungarian at the Debreceni Nyári Egyetem - and it was used. The teachers there are a mix of gymnasium and university language specialists. One whom I became friendly with said her day job was teaching native Hungarian university students and their formal grammar was in general very poor. So it may be a level higher than needed by beginners or in every day speech - but it is correct.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MrrzyV

I loved that place!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kokoskoarl

Thank you for the explanation and for your shared experiences! That explains a lot to me. I dont know what other peoples goals are when learning a language with Duolingo, but mine are definetly not to learn such a high level of grammar, but rather things I can use actively and passively in everyday live. Most of all I want to be able to speak to and understand my girlfriends family. Im a bit disappointed that I am learning a kind of grammar that the 'normal', typical Hungarian speaker does not use, although I can see why one would want to teach correct, proper (and at times also a high level) grammar to us students.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Nicola357618

How interesting !


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/woozlification

Just out of interest, do the native Hungarian speakers out there use the double fölött, or is it something considered "the proper grammar to use", but nobody actually does? I was wondering, as I have not noticed Hungarians doing this. Thank you.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Judit294350

If they say "the" (one az) then no - if they say "that" (two az's) then yes. And why would you want to learn bad grammar anyway?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/woozlification

Thank you, Judit. That's helpful. What I meant was that I have no desire to learn structures that ordinary Hungarians don't use- you know the kind of thing that is considered "correct" and yet is never really said- rather like using the incredibly formal, "To whom are you writing?" instead of the far more commonplace, "Who (or even Whom) are you writing to?"

The Hungarian course likes some ultra-formal English structures- such as the fronting of the English sentence with the preposition, and often rejects the more normal use of it at the end of the sentence- all nice and textbook, but a bit weird in everyday conversation.

My relationships with Hungarians have been, and are likely to be, pretty informal ones, and in many years alongside Hungarians I have never come across the double fölött above, and so, given the slant towards very formal English, I wondered if this bit of Hungarian was formal, too: something taught but never normally used in ordinary life.

If it's something good for everyday conversation, then I want to learn it, complicated or not; but if not, then it's not something I want to devote oodles of my time to :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SandrellaS1

Well both my grandfather who is Hungarian and my friend who is also Hungarian say they have never used it. So, go figure! Everything until this lesson made sence to me but now I really struggle..


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Joachim734726

Please explain the difference between above these cities, and over these cities!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jzsuzsi

above/over these cities - ezek fölött a városok fölött

both are accepted here.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ann-katrin147469

I do not want to do this lesson because I dont understand anything if it. If Duo is a good teacher I ask for explanations! Thank you!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JohnWeber786406

Later lessons build on this though. Ezek will become ezeknél, ezekbõl, ezektõl, etc.
Fölött has fölé, fölül.....
That's further down, though.

What you need to know first is:
A városok fölött. - above the city.
E fölött a város fölött. - above this city.
Ezek fölött a városok fölött. - above these cities.

The fölött would also need to go after the article when specifying a selection or a group. It's a Hungarian grammar rule that kind of stresses that these cities are the target or what you are saying, and it also surrounds the noun target.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Judit294350

DL is a free resource. There are good teachers and courses out there (another heads up for the Debrecen Summer School - but it is not cheap let alone free).

You can read the tips and sentence discussions or ask specific questions (I have not idea what you mean by "I dont understand anything").

Another cheap alternative is to buy a grammar book - but first you need to know what you don't know.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MrrzyV

I agree that over is not the right English translation, above is better. Over would be át and fölé. Thanks. Nuance!

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