"Nem, nem idejön, hanem iderepül."

Translation:No, it does not come here, but it flies here.

August 15, 2016

34 Comments
This discussion is locked.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/arne.kaldhusdal

Does "idejön" have a more specific meaning in this sentence than the generic "to come", i.e. to move from somewhere else to where the speaker is? If it is flying here it is surely coming here as well.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JohnWeber786406

It's awkward even in English. The only way I could see this scenario is like this:
Péter: Nem, nem jön ide. Éva: Aaaaaa, csálódott vagyok. Péter: De ide repül!!! Éva: Boldogság!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MrtonPolgr

To take this a step further, "idejön" isn't quite the same as "ide jön", now let me just say in the progressive aspect you couldn't use the former and also, "nem ide jössz" would simply mean that your destination is something else instead of "here".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Tielbert

To continue the topic. What does ODAJO:N mean then? I predict you say "comes there". Would it be correct to say that "to come" ("jo:nni") doesn't mean coming to the speaker, but "to finish going" - here, there, or anywhere?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MrtonPolgr

Are you curious about megy vs jön or does your question have to do something with the function of the prefix as well?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Tielbert

i want to clear out the sense of the word jo:n modified with different prefixes, particularly ide- and oda-


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MrtonPolgr

"Jön" is quite close to "come". Motion towards our reference point. This is usually the same reference point we define "ide" and "oda" with, so usually "idejön" and "odamegy" are meaningful. "Idemegy" sounds very off to me, not sure I could say a sentence with it. "Odajön" could work when telling a story - you may use "ide" and "oda" according to your current location and the reference for "jön" according to the main character of the story, possibly yourself at the time of the story.

Prefixed verbs are almost always (if not always) telic. The relevance of this aspect is whether the action is "100% done" or not. This is why they don't have a progressive - the action is not treated as a progress, it's treated more like as a transaction that you can't suspend or resume. I'm not sure you can translate this difference between "oda megy" which is the literal equivalent of "go there" and "odamegy" which is one telic verb that still may take an adverb for a destination.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MrtonPolgr

Tielbert, bad thing is I don't know Ukrainian. Based on my shallow understanding of Polish, neither przejść, nor przechodzić is really similar to any of these words. Iść for megy and chodzić for jár might help with certain sentences but I still wouldn't blindly rely on the Polish words.

Oda- and ide- aren't the most generic prefixes for jön and megy. For megy, it's arguably el- and for jön, it is either meg- (megjön~arrive, as in reach this place) or el- (eljön - the "advent" sense, someone decides to come). "Mikor jön már meg" may work when you are impatiently waiting for a guest, "Mikor jön már el" sounds like you are waiting for the messiah to come finally. If you host a party and you know one of your friends lives far away and is likely to be late, you may say "(még) nem jött meg". If they got angry with you and it doesn't look like they will come at all, you may say "nem jött el".

Also, I can't speak for all Slavic languages obviously but for me, it seems to be a trap to think prefixes in Hungarian are just like prefixes in Polish and to my impression, Russian, Czech and so on. Not only do they separate in all kind of ways that makes them look like special kind of extra arguments of a verb, they are much more commonly "omitted". Or one could say, their presence gives the verb a more special and restricted meaning. This is mainly because of the "can't resume" part.
To my experience, in a sentence like "Who(m) did you send that letter", you would use a wysłać-like prefixed verb in Polish. In Hungarian, using "elküld" over "küld" would sound a bit like "Who(m) did you manage to successfully send that letter".
For each "base verb", there is a subset of all prefixed forms that can keep the main meaning without the prefix as well, that is you don't need to specify the prefix at all, it will be understood (mostly thanks to the arguments the verb takes), and in return, it won't sound "tryhard 100% completion".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MrtonPolgr

Tielbert, I'm glad if I could help. :) The usual dilemma - too many details could be overwhelming, too much simplification could make one too confident and cause disappointment later. I lean towards "Better safe than sorry". Anyways; there will be concepts you can make use of, both in English (phrasal verbs) and in Ukrainian (prefixed verbs). The actual thing isn't exactly either but they will both help a bit. And then, exposure is key as they say. :D


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Tielbert

MrtonPolgr, unfortunately DL doesn't indicate the native language of users, as we could speak of some things more specifically in other languages. Based on Ukrainian, I can say that "jo:n" is приходити, "megy" is іти, "odamegy" and "odajo:n" both mean прийти. If you know what I mean :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Tielbert

MrtonPolgr thank you for such a detailed answer. I just resume that I still have a lot to learn!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Patricia460976

For the person who brought up Slavic languages: Hungarian is Ugric not Slavik.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/racze551

I suppose this is a typical lost in translation effect. As a native speaker, the way this sentence makes sense to me is as one emphasizing that the person who is coming is quick and enthusiastic about it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/arne.kaldhusdal

That makes sense. Thank you.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/cVC9doiH

oh, now I get it. In German "ich komme! ich fliege!"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Bastette54

This offered two choices for correct translations, the one above, and also, "No, he does not come here, but it flies here."

Why are there two different pronouns in the second suggestion? If he/she/it is flying here, then isn't he/she/it by definition coming here?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Findil

You are right, I don't think that other translation should be acceptable. In the sentence "Nem idejön, hanem iderepül" both actions have the same subject.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Bastette54

I'll report it, then!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/guntunge

But to get any sense in this sentence two different subjects are necessary?

No, HE does not come here, but SHE flies here. Person a does not come, but Person b comes, by plane. Works also with two males, or whatever. But the important part is imho that we are talking about two different subjects.

Might even work in a dialog:
A: Is Adam coming? And what about Steve? He usually flies, doesn't he?
B: No, he does not come here, but he flies here.
Still confusing, but otherwise it sounds like total nonsense.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MrtonPolgr

That's not what the Hungarian sentence suggests. It suggests that you are making a correction about the action and not about the actor. "You were wrong how he will arrive - he doesn't come here but flies here", it doesn't sound nonsensical for me, in either language.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Babelshark42

It's totally nonsensical in English.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MrtonPolgr

How would you express the thought I described? I suppose people can arrive using unexpected methods, no matter what language you are using.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Judit294350

As a native English speaker, it is perfectly fine.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JereArmen

"Flying" is a form of "coming." Some of us are arguing that jön is a vague word for coming in this direction, regardless of means. Therefore it is a little specious to insist that "flying here" is not the same as "coming here." It may be more accurate, but it does not negate the jön.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MrtonPolgr

This has been discussed 9 months ago - besides, the Hungarian sentence clearly and unambiguously means that. Replacing "idejön" to "idesétál" should be considered, until then, you can just replace the verb in your head if it bothers you that much, the overall sentence structure doesn't depend on it really.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/EsjaL

What is the contrast suggested by 'hanem'? Surely, flying is a way of coming, too! Does 'jön' imply walking? (I wouldn't think so..)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MrtonPolgr

That was the intention clearly and it borderline works in my opinion - like, the contrast establishes a context where "jön" implies walking, even though it could naturally refer to other types of movement.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/EsjaL

Moreover, the 'but' in the English translation is not very natural. To my ears & eyes it's more natural to just repeat the subject (it/he/she) and leave out the 'but'.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SusanRankin1

Why is it "it" not he or she?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Judit294350

It could be. But most things that fly are an "it" - apart from kindergarten teachers.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MrrzyV

Why not separate after Nem?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MrtonPolgr

Because the action itself is negated.

[...] nem jön ide - The whole statement, with all the details and context, happens to be false.
[...] nem idejön - The details and the context are okay but the verb is wrong. With some other verb, the statement would become true.

Just like here. He/she does something that makes him/her end up here - but it's not simply "coming". It's "flying" that takes them here.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JohnWeber786406

This is actually an instance (one of at least five) where the preverb remains attached!
Nem preverb-verb, hanem preverb-verb
You are actively comparing two verbs.

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