"Az az iroda a harmadik emeleten olyan, amilyen ez."

Translation:That office on the third floor is like this one.

August 20, 2016

32 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/AlsEenPoffertje

When do you use "olyan...mint" and when do you use "olyan...amilyen"? Here are the sentences I've gotten for both, just to use as examples:

Mint:

  • Ez az asztal olyan, mint az. = This table is like that one.
  • Az a kutya olyan, mint ez. = That dog is like this one.

Amilyen:

  • A szobor a városban olyan, amilyen a város: unalmas. = The statue in the city is like the city: boring.

  • Az iskola előtt olyan óvónő harcol, amilyen a város fölött repül. = In front of the school such a kindergarten teacher is fighting as the one that is flying above the city.

  • Az az iroda a harmadik emeleten olyan, amilyen ez. = That office on the third floor is like this one.

What's the difference between the two in this type of structure?

Initially I thought it might have to do with the fact that just a pronoun is used after the two examples with mint, but the same is true of the last example with amilyen. :/

August 20, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/96314081311257

They seem to be interchangeable to me, or you could even use both (mint amilyen.) Pay extra attention to the óvónő one because you need to add a pronoun if you use mint: Olyan óvónő harcol, mint aki/ami/amelyik repül.

August 20, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/vvsey

Yes, they are interchangeable, in this case. But this is just like special relativity - it is just a special case of the much broader theory of general relativity. See, in special relativity... but I digress.

Look closely at the "olyan - amilyen" pair. There is something common in them.

Yes, they are in the same case!

Let's call it the nominative case. They are both in the nominative.

But they don't need to be in the nominative. They could both be in the accusative:

"olyat - amilyet":

  • "Milyen sört kérsz?"
  • "Olyat, amilyet te iszol."

Or any other case:

  • "Milyen autóval mész?" - What kind of car are you going with?
  • "Olyannal, amilyennel te" - "With such a one as the one you are."
    Or:
  • "Olyannal, mint te". - "Same as you."

Back to the beer for a second:

"Olyat, amilyet te iszol." - "Such, as the one you drink".
I could not say this one with just "mint". Because there is "iszol" - "you drink". That is, "you drink something". And that something is in the accusative. For the logic of the sentence to stay intact, I need something in the accusative that "iszol" can refer to.
And I can't put "mint" in the accusative! I need the word "amilyen" which I can freely conjugate. "Olyat, amilyet te iszol."

So, if I need to conjugate in the second clause, I do need the word "amilyen".

If I remove "iszol":

  • "Milyen sört kérsz?"
  • "Olyat, amilyet te."

then I do not need to worry about any conjugation. The only thing other than "amilyet" in the second clause is "te". A subject. And "te" does not care. The word "amilyet" is in the same case as "olyat", it can safely be replaced by "mint":

  • "Olyat, mint te." - perfect.

Any other case is also possible, of course.

Now it becomes interesting.

The two members of the pair do not need to be in the same case. Pick virtually any two cases (noun suffix or postposition) and apply them separately to the two:

"olyanBÓL - amilyenHEZ"
"olyan ALATT - amilyenBEN"
"olyanNAL - amilyenRE"
Etc.

  • "Milyen autóval megyünk?" - What kind of car are we going with?
  • "OlyanNAL, amilyenRE pénzünk van" - "WITH such one FOR which we have money."

Do I need to further explain why "amilyen" is needed here? Something must be conjugated to indicate the case of the second clause. "Mint" can't be conjugated. We need "amilyen".

So, let's set up the rule here:

The full form is:

"olyan .... , mint amilyen ...".

The word "mint" is optional, it can be omitted.
And the word "amilyen" can be omitted (keeping "mint") under one of these conditions:
- if both are in the nominative case
- sometimes if at least the second clause is in the nominative
- if both are in the same case, and the only other thing the second clause contains is a subject.

So, that's how "olyan, amilyen" and "olyan, mint" are special cases and are interchangeable.

I hope I didn't miss or mess up anything.

August 20, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/guilth

These explanations should go in the description of the lesson :) very useful, thank you so much!

September 12, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/96314081311257

Milyen sört kérsz?

Olyat, mint amit iszol.

You need a relative pronoun, but it isn't necessarily amilyen.

August 21, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/vvsey

Yes, of course, this was specifically about the "olyan - amilyen" pair, and their relation to "mint", but there are many, many more of these words, and pairs of words (ami, amely, amelyik, amilyen, az-ami, akkor-amikor, onnan-ahonnan, azért-amiért, ugyanaz-ami, etc., etc.), for all cases and what-not, and they can even be cross-used if the context requires. So the topic is even more general.
But, hopefully, the basic concept of usage described above applies to them all.

"Ami" is somewhat special, stands in its own category (with its conjugated forms), because it can refer back to the whole first clause, not just to that one word in the first clause. So it requires special handling. But that is yet another topic.

August 21, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/vvsey

I love "quick questions" that take an hour to answer. :D

Szokás szerint nagyon szívesen!
And you are a master of the various thank you phrases, there is nothing to correct there, "alapos válasz" sounds perfect.

Here is a link to a Hungarian article about "ami", "amely" and "amelyik", so this is mostly for natives, as a reference:
http://nyelvmuveles.hu/magyarosan-nyelvhelyesseg/ami-amely-es-tarsaik

I will try to explain the bottom line.

The word "amely" is a close relative of "amelyik", and their role is similar to that of "which", in the sense of "the one that". I am trying to be as vague as possible because the match is not exact.

"AMI"
The word "ami" can have two roles.
One is to refer back to a whole previous clause:

  • I lost my wallet, which is bad news.
  • Elvesztettem a pénztárcámat, ami rossz hír.

This kind of usage is not particularly frequent in Hungarian, there are other ways. For example, to break the sentence into two sentences.

The other role of "ami" is to refer back to something (a phrase, a clause) that could be expressed with a noun, when the noun itself it missing.
A simple English example for this is:

  • "Do not talk about what you don't understand."

The word "what" refers to something that is not named in "do not talk about". There is an implied "thing" in there. It is in "what" itself: "the thing that". So this is a good candidate for "ami":

  • "Ne beszélj arról/olyasmiről, amit nem értesz."

(Hungarian requires a placeholder in the first clause, you can't just omit it, so that's why we have "arról"/"olyasmiről".)

So, "ami" refers back to an "unnamed" noun.

"AMELY"
The word "amely", on the other hand, refers back to a "named" noun. More specifically, the last noun in the referred clause. It describes it or gives more information about it.

  • "We are talking about the house that we are standing in front of."

Here, the word "that" refers back to the noun "house". A "named noun". So, this is a good candidate for "amely":

  • "A házról beszélünk, amely előtt állunk."

The word "amely" refers to the "named noun": "ház".

Or it can even be indefinite:

  • "We are talking about a house that we saw yesterday."
  • Egy házról beszélünk, amelyet tegnap láttunk."

"AMELYIK"
Again, "amelyik" is a close relative of "amely". It is an emphasized, more identifying reference back to a specific thing among many similar things. It selects "the one that". Which house are we talking about?

  • We are talking about that house which is in front of us."

Here, the word "which" refers back to that specific house, a definite, named noun, out of many. So, this is a good candidate for "amelyik":

  • Arról a házról beszélünk, amelyik előttünk van."

So, here, the named noun is definitely definite. It is preceded by a definite article.

I think this is it, that's the bottom line. Simple, eh? :)

August 21, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/AlsEenPoffertje

I'm replying here because I'm not going to skip thanking you for this. ;)

It actually is relatively simple! Though I understand the difference, in the future I'll find out how well I can apply it. ;)

Még egyszer, köszönöm szépen az alapos választ! :D (I can't wait until I can write more than thank you's in Hungarian.)

August 22, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/AlsEenPoffertje

Oh wow, I normally copy and paste explanations into my notes, but this time I think I'm going to have to just copy and paste the link to this discussion. XD

Köszönöm szépen a nagyon alapos választ! :D (I've never seen the word for "thorough", so correct me if the one I chose is wrong.)

One quick question: What is "amely" exactly? I've never seen that before. :o

August 21, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/vvsey

Igazán nincs mit, komolyan, bármikor nagyon szívesen teszem. :)

A good test is trying to answer similar questions by others in the course. See if you can explain it to others. Several non-natives here are already doing a really good job!

August 22, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Krisbaudi

Very useful, thank you!

October 24, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Judit294350

Late - but have an Lingot!

October 21, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/dqJacO

OK -- why "olyat" and not "olyant"? (Olyat seems to be the accusative of a different word -- oly -- while all the other forms are based on olyan.)

January 26, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/vvsey

Well, let's just say "olyant" got simplified to "olyat" during the times. You can say "olyant" if you want, it is not much used but will mean the same thing. Which also means "oly" and "olyan" also mean the same thing.
The same goes for "ily" and "ilyen".

I can think of one exception to what I just wrote:
"Olykor" and "olyankor" are not the same:
"Olykor" or "olykor-olykor" - sometimes, from time to time
"Olyankor" - at such a time.

This does not fully apply to "ily" because there is no "ilykor".

"Oly" and "ily" are also more frequently used in compound words. We can really think of them as just short forms of "olyan" and "ilyen".

January 26, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/Chris265302

That's brilliant; thanks very much!

February 1, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/Bastette54

AlsEenPoffertje - Could you explain what this means: "In front of the school such a kindergarten teacher is fighting as the one that is flying above the city." I'm a native English speaker but I can't figure out what this is saying. That the two teachers, one who is fighting and one who is flying, are similar? Thanks.

December 28, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/AlsEenPoffertje

Yes, that's exactly what it means! ^_^ The sentence is worded kind of awkwardly, so I can see why you would have trouble understanding what it means. I know I had to think about it for a moment when I first read it.

December 28, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Bastette54

OK, thanks. Did you get that from one of the exercises here? I haven't come across it yet, but now I'll be ready for it. :)

December 28, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/AlsEenPoffertje

Yep, it was one of the sentences on Duolingo. :D

December 29, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Krisbaudi

:-) thank you!

October 24, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/-__Jacob__-

How would this sentence translate "That office is on the third floor, like this one"?

September 1, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/AlsEenPoffertje

Here's my guess: "Az az iroda a harmadik emeleten van, mint ez."

Hopefully a native speaker will soon confirm whether this is right or not. ^_^

September 1, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/vvsey

It is just fine, definitely right. But I would probably add a few more words to it:

A simple "is":
"Az az iroda a harmadik emeleten van, mint ez is." - like this one, too

"Ugyanúgy, mint" - the same way as
"Az az iroda a harmadik emeleten van, ugyanúgy, mint ez."

Which opens up a new can of worms. You can stick "ugyan" at the front of several of these words that I have no idea what they are... proverbial pronouns maybe? I really don't know. But they include these: így, úgy, ilyen, olyan, akkor, itt, ott, etc. And the result will carry the meaning of "the same ... as". A few examples:

ugyanott - at the same place
ugyanakkor - at the same time
ugyanúgy - the same way
ugyanolyan - the same...

"Ugyanolyan", with an adjective, adds the "the same ... as" or "as ... as ..." meaning to that adjective:

hosszú - long
ugyanolyan hosszú - the same length as ... or as long as ...
szép - beautiful
ugyanolyan szép - as beautiful as ...

September 5, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/AlsEenPoffertje

Oh wow, that's really interesting! :o I've linked this comment in my notes, so that I'll hopefully be able to try that out in the future. :D

Köszi az érdekes választ! :D

September 5, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/vvsey

Szívesen! :) And this is just the first step down this lane. These can be paired up with other words, just like their "ugyan"-less siblings.
Ugyanott - ahol
ugyanolyan - mint amilyen
ugyanakkor - amikor
ugyanolyan hosszú - mint ...

Etc.

September 5, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/vvsey

Well, I guess "király" describes it pretty well. :) But everyone has their favorite word. Maybe you could ask in a discussion for suggestions. Király, remek, nagyszerű, vagány, etc. It all depends. Some of these are slang words, which means they can change all the time. For "pretty" here, I would probably use "elég". "Meglehetősen" is maybe too serious, it would sound like "sufficiently cool" :). "Eléggé" can be shortened to "elég". And "remek" is a good word because it is short and sweet but it is not idiomatic, it actually means "great", "masterful", so anyone can use it. You can also say "kiváló" - great, outstanding.
Or you can just stay with your favorite "király" and say "nagyon király". :)
But all of the above are certainly correct.

September 5, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/AlsEenPoffertje

That's pretty cool! :D What would be a good word for "cool"? Also, which word would you rather use here: meglehetősen or eléggé? That is if both are even correct for "pretty/rather" XD

September 5, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/-__Jacob__-

Ok, thanks.

September 1, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Jarek791896

ahonnan

December 15, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Shamarth

That means 'from where' and doesn't suit this sentence.

January 29, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/RobertEddy

Good discussion here.

March 27, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/Trumpetnut

This whole ami, amilyen thing is baffling. I'm stuck on the Adjective Conjunction exercise. I just can't seem to create a rule that works in my head. I was the same with ahol, ahova and ahorran, but then a little thing made me go 'oh, yeah' and its not bothered me since. I have a book that that puts olyan and mint together, but otehrwise??? Baffled. And my Hungarian friends can't even explain it!!!

June 29, 2017
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