Difference between kunsido and kunveno
Could someone explain to me the difference in meaning/connotation of kunsido and kunveno? When would you use one and when the other? Thanks in advance! Christoph
I see. So what would be examples where kunveno would be more appropriate and where kunsido would be better?
Exactly. A kunsido is a working session of a group like a board of directors. There will be minutes. A quorum will be required. A kunveno is much less specific.
Okay. That is helpful. Would you also say that kunsido is more about the meeting as a process in time while kunveno is more about the coming together in space, as it were?
And about the quorum: I see the point about kunsido being more formal, but does it necessarily have to have a quorum? That may be the case for a board of directors but when I meet with my colleagues to discuss our project we wont be all that formal but I suppose it will still be a kunsido?
I've already given my best off-the-cuff answer. I'm not prepared at this moment to drag out a bunch of dictionaries and dig through numerous examples of use in the wild. - that might be productive, but I'm pretty confident in Dave's answer and my clarification.
Is a quorum "required" for a kunsido? I cannot say. However, my sense is that "kunsido" refers to a formal session of an established body such as congress or a board of directors. It's when the group in physically sits together to do business. Sometimes the group is scattered to the four winds. Other times they are sitting together.
On the other hand, when your project team comes together, does it matter if half the group is on vacation or in other meetings? Is the team formally defined? When members of other teams come in for the meeting, are they part of the meeting or seen as visitors? My sense is that a project team would have "kunvenoj." It's conceivable that you could speak of having formed a closed team and that they were only able to "kunsidi" three times in the last six months - which to me would imply that the individual members may have seen each other, but the whole group was not sitting together more than three times.
I think that when the school holds an assembly that I would use "kunveno".
For a board meeting, I think I could use "kunsido", but I think that "kunveno" would also work.
A big convention might have a gathering of people from many places. The word "gathering" there would be "conveno", I believe.
Then I checked google translate and found some more words: https://translate.google.com/#auto/eo/The%20board%20meeting%20will%20convene%20at%2010%20am.%0AThe%20school%20assembly%20is%20at%202%20pm.
My first thought was also the distinction between the board meeting and assembly but then I found this: https://glosbe.com/en/eo/meeting The examples at the bottom of the page seem to use conveno more often and also in the sense of board or team meeting.
Also, according to that dictionary, it doesn't quute work to associate "convene" with kunveno because it states that kunveno can even designate an accidental (ie a non-convened) meeting.
so I'm still confused...
Kunveno and kunsido are for all intents and purposes synonyms. People like to attach one idea to one or the other but they are used interchangeably. One group will say we have an official "kunveno" while another will say "kunsido".
Perhaps for many intents and purposes, but certainly not all of them.
It's easy to see, for example, that the two terms are used differently in articles from Monato (as searchable in the Tekstaro.)
The only difference is that associations have chosen to use one or another and people have later tried to define these choices.
Obviously, if you don't physically sit together then you wouldn't use kunsido. That's the only real difference I can see yet people sometimes break this rule.
Additionally, some groups have traditionally used kunveno or kunsido. In Australia, I don't think I've ever attended a kunsido. Both AEA and EFNSK simply call them kunvenoj.
Some associations have "Jarkunvenoj" while others have "Jarkunsidoj" which both function the same and serve the same purpose. It's just a matter of preference which has been extended into tradition.
Richard, I disagree with a few of your points. A 'kunsido" implies literal sitting-together only as much as a "kunveno" implies literal coming together. If you can have a virtual kunveno you can have a virtual kunsido.
It's certainly not just a matter of preference. The words mean different things. Yes, there are circumstances where either term would work, but if you look at the definitions in PIV, and if you look at the kinds of hits that come up in actual use, there is a general tendency to see a "kunsido" as more formal than a "kunveno."
Tribunals, Congress, Boards of directors, and committees have kunsidoj. Clubs and associations have kunvenoj.
Ironically, there are several mentions of "kunsidoj" on AEA's web page, and my feeling reading them is that they're using the words wrong - but they are using them (in contrast to what you say above.)
@salivanto (I realize I need to include the reference in the post since the order of the posts can change): meetings can be formal in different ways: e.g. in terms of procedures (use of an agenda, decision-making rules, taking minutes, use of a speakers list,...), or in terms of formally asskgbed roles (chair, secretary,...), or in terms of the formal constitution of the body holding the meeting. And since there is no reason why a club shouldn't hold formal mertings in many of those senses (and associations surely have committees and boards) so that the distinction you propose is difficult to maintain in practice.
But we are getting there. So what exactly were you thinking of as making kunvenoj (in associations) different from kunsidoj (of boards)?
Okay, this is very helpful.
Regarding the physically sitting together: Would you say then that a Skype meeting (or other sorts of video/phone conference) cannot be a kunsido? Or did you not mean the "physical" that literally
Maybe I should explain why I'm so keen to understand these nuances. I am preparing an international research project on meetings (and the organizational cultures connected to them) and I had this idea of maybe using the Esperanto term in the name of the project in order to signal some linguistic neutrality. But I don't want to pick the wrong term, of course (wrong in the sense that it excludes some of the phenomena that the project is actually interest in as well as misleading in the sense of including too many things that are not actually part of the study.)
Nu, ĉiu vendrede kelkaj kolegoj kaj mi havas kunplendo pri laboro, vivo, studentoj, ktp, en la drinkejo. Ni sidas, sed ĝi ne estas kunsido :). Mi pensas ke ĝi ankaŭ ne estas kunveno. Kundrinkado eble? Ni nomas ĝin "seminar" por ke ĝi ŝajnas esti serioza laboro.
I have to admit that I do not understand enough esperanto to be able to understand the exsmpled from Monato, but it seems to me that kusido indeed has a strong connotation of "one session among a series of sessions of a constituted group" but this impression could also be biased given that the majority of examokes are from news reports about the same event (the 2001 IMF and WB meeting in Prague). But it can also be used for a more spontaneous meeting people who do not formally constitute a group ("ankau por 45-minuta kunsido kun la kuba prezidanto").
The kunveno examples, on the other hand, also include a lot of such group sessions (e. g. kunvenoj de urbaj konsilantaroj) - possibly because those are often reported in the news - but also more general/unspecified types of meetings and even massmeetings (rallies).
So I have to say that I am still not sure what is the better term for my work meetings, team mertings, project mertings, community meetings, working group meetings etc. Kunsido seems to fit because of the more narrow sense of a face-to-face session (rather than a broader gathering where several conversations can take place at the same time). But the limitation to a formally constituted group/body does not fit...