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  5. "Τα κλειδιά τα έχει ο πατέρας…

"Τα κλειδιά τα έχει ο πατέρας μου."

Translation:My father has the keys.

August 31, 2016

48 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/anyom

why is τα here twice?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/simon352104

The technical term for this is 'clitic doubling', i.e. the doubling of the article. The mechanics are not entirely understood (at least by my understanding), but it has to do with the information structure of the sentence. With an object initial sentence like this it can occur, but also with verb initial sentences like τα έχει τα κλειδιά ο πατέρας μου and subject initial like ο πατέρας μου τα έχει τα κλειδιά. These are grammatically correct, but in practice clitic doubling doesn't occur uniformly across all the different word orders. The important thing is that the doubled clitic goes in the position directly before the verb.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ibogi2

Is this common in formal speech or is it reserved only for colloquial speech


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dantedante19

I really loves that it works like in Spanish or Italian:

Las llaves las tiene mi padre.

Le chiavi le ha mio padre.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Gallos80

Or in French: Les clés, c'est mon père qui les a. / Les clés, mon père les a.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/gnieszka7

Can you also say? Ο πατέρας μου έχει τα κλειδιά?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16
Mod
  • 175

Yes, that is another correct and accepted translation.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Condorandi

Thank you so much for your explanation


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rob43066

One of those interesting characteristic features that many languages have and are impossible to explain to a learner. But why does duoling introduce this for the first time in a listening task??? To make sure that we pay attention?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Gallos80

It's not a listenning exercise for everybody...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ZoranMudronja

my guess is that the first "τα" is the article and the second one is the indicative pronoun (something like "the these keys")


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

Literally, it's a bit like "The keys: my father has them".

The first τα is the "the" in "the keys", the second is the "them".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AniOhevYayin

Clitic doubling is related to the notion of resumptive accusative, a type of prolepsis (anticipation). I'm not surprised it's in modern Gk (MG) because ancient Gk had prolepsis (Smyth p. 488). Mackridge writes about this in his Modern Gk Language, p. 223: "An important function of the clitic pronoun is its proleptic and resumptive uses. When used proleptically, the clitic pronoun anticipates the object pronoun....when used resumptively it recalls an object which has already been stated." I think we have resumptive clitic here. Mackridge then gives examples and states that "a clitic pronoun is always used when όλα ('all') is the direct object." He has quite a bit more to say about the topic. It's a little bit like anticipatory indirect object pronouns in Spanish, such as les mando dinero a nuestros hijos, "I am sending money to my kids," which causes difficulty for English speakers who find the indirect object pronoun unnecessary, redundant, and so we forget to put it in when speaking Spanish. We'll have a similar problem remembering to put in the second τα in this sentence. My question is (slightly different from the one below): Will this sentence work with the clitic inserted proleptically? ο πατέρας μου τα έχει τα κλειδιά.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/G.Georgopoulos

Yes, that's correct as well.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hafizen

@AniOhevYayin

Thanks for your well-researched contributions. They are intellectually stimulating.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PauloMuffato

Trivial correction: "... to our kids".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Condorandi

mizinamo, good explanation!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Tato_Huenupi

Is this like Spanish?: Las llaves las tiene mi padre.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/D_..
Mod
  • 74

Judging by Schynd's comment right above, yes.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Tato_Huenupi

Oh, I haven't seen the comment.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lng52-._

Try: "Mi padre tiene las llaves". And, in Greek: "Ο πατέρας μου έχει τα κλειδιά".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sophisteiai

To answer a question stated by some commenters, this phenomenon almost never occurs in the formal speech and written form of Greek. However, they are very common in the vernacular and they are used, as far as I can understand, for emphasis/focus. But the two τα must not be considered the same. There is not a full explanation of this, but I believe that the first τα is the article accompanying κλειδιά, while the second τα is the shortened version of the neuter plural form of the personal pronoun αυτός, αυτή, αυτό (pl. αυτά, i.e. they - neuter). Which means that literally this sentence would be: "My father has them (the) keys." Example: Έχεις τα κλειδιά; Ναι, τα έχω (τα κλειδιά)! (Do you have the keys? Yes, I have them (the keys)!)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AniOhevYayin

I appreciate your comment here. According to Mackridge (Modern Gk Language, p. 223), "The neuter singular τό [sic] (sometimes the plural τά) is often used to refer to a whole clause." He gives an example of τά 'μαθες; Πέθανε ο Μπρέζνιεφ. Ναί, το ξέρω. "Have you heard (it)? Brezhnev's died." "Yes, I know (it)." In this sentence, he says, τα "perhaps refers to τα νέα, 'the news,' while το ...is optional." His comment seems to back up your point that a full explanation of this phenomenon is hard to come by. He doesn't say anything about τα as possibly being a shortened form of αυτά. Horrocks has a section on clitic pronouns and syntax on pp. 108 ff. in his Greek: A History of the Language and Speakers (2nd edition). Apparently, he also wrote a seminal article on this topic in 1990, "Clitics in Greek: A Diachronic Review" in Greek Outside Greece II (Athens) pp. 35-52. I haven't read that article, but in the book (p. 109) he writes that classical Gk 3rd person anaphoric pronouns, αὐτόν, 'him,' etc., function effectively as clitics...they are, of course, the source of the modern clitic pronouns τον etc., via the reduced forms ἀτόν etc. that are sometimes attested in low-level texts of the Hellenistic and Roman periods." He corroborates your hunch.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Vjeko13

Wouldn't this be a more precise answer: "The keys that my father has"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/simon352104

Less precise but clearly still a similar sense. The issue here is that the repeated τα is not a relative pronoun as in your translation which makes a subordinate relative clause that then assumes an eclipsed verb in the main clause: "[they are] the keys which my father has". Greek doesn't repeat the article for relative clauses. The sentence above is all a single main clause with no subordination.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Vjeko13

Thanks, this is really a great explanation and clears confusion entirely.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Alex.Lupu

Can you say it the other way around? Ο πατερας μου εχει τα κλειδια τα.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/D_..
Mod
  • 74

Yes, you can use the standard subject-verb-object structure (without that extra τα in the end). It is however very common to reverse the order and put the emphasis on the object.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Schynd

Same thing in Spanish:

Mi padre tiene las llaves. Las llaves las tiene mi padre.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jss.___

The first las is an article and the second a pronoun.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Schynd

Exactly. Same with τα here.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AniOhevYayin

So then literally in both languages the sentence says "the keys, my father has them"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mrtugg27

I somehow feel like the more logical way to say it would be "Ο πατέρας μου έχει τα κλειδιά."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

That is also a valid Greek sentence. It differs in focus/emphasis from Duo's.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AniOhevYayin

It's how English speakers will want to say the sentence. I appreciate DL giving us this interesting example of how Greek people might say a sentence with clitic doubling and the moderators' responses to help explain it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Stergi3

The second τα is redundant. Is it necessary? Yes, the phrase looks truncated without it for a native speaker. So, Object, τον/την/το etc, Verb, Subject. A reverse form Subject, Verb, Object, that is ο πατέρας έχει τα κλειδιά does not have τα. In this case the syntax Subject, Object, Verb is odd, and not used. Notice that this kind of Syntax is permitted in Greek, but not always, except for some poetic speech phrases, which have freedom in the Syntax.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AlexDaubri

I feel pretty unconfortable with this translation as for my understanding "τα κλειδιά τα έχει ο πατέρας μου" is not the same as "ο πατερας μου εχει τα κλειδια". To me this sentence sounds more likes "The keys that my father has" or "Τα κλειδια οτι ο πατερας μου εχει"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Schynd

It is a correct structure though. We also have it in Spanish: "Las llaves las tiene mi padre." You're basically giving the keys the main role in the sentence.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/G.Georgopoulos

Those sentences are not the same, they emphasize different things, depending on what you want to say. As for the example, it should be "Τα κλειδιά που/τα οποία ο πατέρας μου έχει" ;)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/yY084

What the what?!? Doesnt this say the keys have my father?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

No.

έχει is third person singular and ο πατέρας μου is in the nominative case, so "my father" has to be the subject.

That means that τα κλειδία must be in the accusative case and thus the object.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AlexanderT149081

In my audio, I cannot hear the "μου".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AlexanderT149081

When i came back to this exercise, I turned my volume way up and was able to hear it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/drew45112

I think about the only time you would see this in English is when the keys are the subject of the sentence and being in response to a selection of items and who might have which. Otherwise, the exact translation could be offered as the question no?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lkKara5

my keys has my dad??


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16
Mod
  • 175

You could use "dad" Sorry, although "father" is better since the Greek says "ο πατέρας" not "ο μπαμπάς".

However, but the word order is not correct.

You need,

the subject "my dad" the verb "has" object "the keys".

Word order is very important in English and not very flexible.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AniOhevYayin

ο πατέρας μου is nominative and so has to be the subject.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/D_..
Mod
  • 74

Exactly, since English doesn't have cases, you have to maintain the subject-verb-object order, so 'my dad' needs to go before the verb.

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