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  5. "Εσείς είσαστε κορίτσια."

"Εσείς είσαστε κορίτσια."

Translation:You are girls.

August 31, 2016

44 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/spanishzacd

Εσείς should be denoted as "you (plural)" or "you all".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/torowan

To be precise, 'you' already is the plural pronoun ... perhaps sadly, English has lost thou/thee/you/ye and consolidated it all into one variant. Anything other than 'you' is a regionalism anymore. I/me is next to be lost, these declensions are too often used backwards in common speech :(


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sdr51

However, the translation should be "you are girls", and not "you are all girls", according to jaye16, one of the course developers. So, I have reported that translation as incorrect. We need to be careful to use your suggestion the way it is used in the U.S. south: "you all are girls", which is not the same thing, and would be fine.

[Later edit] Of course, we should keep in mind that DL is not necessarily well-advised to incorporate regional uses, and the southern "y'all" etc certainly qualifies there. By "being fine", I only meant to say that it would be a correct translation into that regional variant, but not that it should be accepted as a response on DL.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Apogeotou

Είστε is an alternative form of είσαστε (you all are / you [formal] are). You can use whichever you want. Είστε has one less syllable so it's easier to say.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/_Dimitris_

Actually είστε is the main form of the verb. Είσαστε is secondary. Personally I'm almost allergic to it :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Mobjack

This is exactly the kind of 'inside information' that is SO helpful--to me, at least. Ευχαριστώ πολύ!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/_Dimitris_

Παρακαλώ!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YPSILONZ

Είσαστε is the most commonly used though.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/_Dimitris_

Let me remind you the topic here is Greek, not English varieties. :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sdr51

Oh, I agree. But sometimes one needs to discuss the varieties of English that are appropriate to use as a translation of the Greek, or even of varieties of Greek. In this case, it's all about the propriety of "all", or when "guys" may include girls.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MarksAaron

Could we also accept "εσείς" as "you guys", as per other DL courses?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

We would not accept "guys" here because we are trying to teach the word "girls".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MarksAaron

In American English at least, "you guys" has become one of the most common 2nd-person plural pronouns; the original gendered meaning of "guys" in this case is largely gone (I'm speaking as a native English speaker from California). It's actually common now to use "you guys" with groups of any gender, including all female.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tu.8zPhLD72zzoZN

I don't know, because this is the feminine version and if I know I am talking to an all female group I would not use "guys".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sdr51

"You guys" works with all-male and with mixed gender groups, but would be uncommon with all-female. And when gender is a central issue, as in "all girls", it wouldn't fit at all.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LaudaMercurium

I would use "you guys" with an all female group, though in this case, yeah, "you guys are girls" may sound odd since the gender is being explicitly commented on .


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/EMILYSPRIN16

I second this as well


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/hec10tor

In another course I use "y'all", but I hate it becuase I'm not from dixie and it grates on my nerves when I hear it. I will try you guys from now on.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

I'm doing a mini survey of other languages to get a grip on the basic use of (all) to indicate plural.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MarksAaron

The reason this has come up many times across all the Duolingo courses is because in standard English there's no singular/plural distinction in 2nd person (there's only "you"). So when English speakers come here and start learning languages with a very obvious pronoun distinction, it's often confusing for us/them, especially those of us who are studying a foreign language for the first time. Including an alternative like "you guys" or "you all/y'all" helps English speakers reinforce the fact that there's a difference between e.g. French "tu" and "vous", German "du" and "ihr", or here Greek "εσύ" ad "εσείς", especially since most English speakers do make a distinction using a form like "you guys" or "y'all" in our regional/colloquial varieties. At the very least, accepting a relatively region-neutral term like "you all" would go a long way towards helping English speakers learning a foreign language to reinforce in their own minds the difference between singular and plural 2nd-person forms in their target languages. Just translating all of them as "you" does nothing to help us acquire the distinction or learn when a singular form is appropriate versus a plural form. - my opinion as a native speaker of American English and a professional linguist.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sdr51

Is there any other "all" than the southern U.S. one that indicates plural? Because universally, "all" assumes plurality, and adds meaning by signaling uniformity. So I think the simple plural sense should very definitely be treated as a regional variant only, and not as a fundamental of English.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kirakrakra

you (sing); you (pl) = εσύ· εσείς in Gr, du; ni in Sw, sinä; te in Fi, tu; vous In Fr, tú; vosotros/ vosotras or ustedes in Sp, du; Sie in Ge ... English is quite unique to not differ sing and pl. How did I ever learn it?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

I've deleted the comment here which referred to the use of "you" and "ye" because it was incorrect.

Here is a copy of the correct past usage posted by by JacobPast177 on the subject: ---" the 2nd Person SINGULAR (INFORMAL) was 'thou, thee, thy/thine, thine'—this corresponds to the Greek 'εσύ'. The 2nd Person PLURAL was 'ye/you, you, your, yours'—this corresponds to the Greek 'εσείς' and, just like the latter, was also used as the FORMAL/HONORIFIC SINGULAR."--

Thanks again Jacob for saving the day.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Mimi658232

And why not "You (pl.) are girls." ? Everyone will understand "pl." for "plural" is not part of the translation but simply a useful comment on the translation to avoid ambiguity.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

Thank you for your suggestion. However, adding grammatical notes to sentences would make them really unnatural. Duolingo teaches through the use of natural language so the learner can get used to the way natives speakers use the language.

There are many areas in a language that can be confusing if you are not used to them. For example, many languages, (even Greek) use singular forms of "you" not to show singular or plural but to show respect. But speakers of the language do very well with no problems. Most communication in any language is dependent on context.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Andrew-Macdonald

Why isn't y'all accepted? I know I'm being picky, but It's accepted in the German tree.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

Now, that surprises me. Of course, I completed the Ger. tree 3 years ago and haven't done much on it since then so I may be mistaken.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JacobPast177

Hey Jaye, and I want to use thou wherever there is εσύ!!!

Nah, I'm just kidding. And I actually like the idea to accept y'all as an alternative answer for those who want to check if they have their grammar down.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

Deja vu moment. About 3 years ago there was a minor ruckus about the use of y'all. Then it seemed to have disappeared until now that is. I don't see any reason to interpret the sentence when we don't need to do it in our own language. Very seldom is there a prob. And if we had to, I said if, I am not in favor of y'all which is regional. Could you imagine including all other regional use of Eng. And if you include one then->> can of worms. Please hang in there and I'll get back to you.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GeorgiosDC

I agree with jaye16 on not needing to interpret everything if it's not done in English (or whichever language you translate to).

As an example, if you got the sentence «Είσαι έξυπνη» you would translate it as "You are clever"; you wouldn't (usually) go out of your way to point out that this is addressed to a female, trying things like "You are a clever woman", "You are a clever girl" or "She is clever now, ain't she? That's my girl! Yes, it's you I'm talking about!" ;-p

Similarly, going the other way around, if you translate "He is eating" in Greek, you might say "Αυτός τρώει", but you might as well just say "Τρώει" and be OK, as using the pronoun is not obligatory, and thus omit the gender information (if you don't need to discern between different people etc).

Edit: Having read some more of the posts on this thread, I am led to understand that the various variants of "you all" are used more frequently than I thought. However, my comment still stands: if something is not specified in the common use of the language you translate to, I don't think you should specify it. If it is commonly used though, you have to think about it more.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RobFourie

In standard English there is no plural form of ΄you΄, but the use of y'all (USA) and ΄ye΄ (Ireland and Scotland) are reasonably widespread and should be accepted as correct for εσείς.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

It is not widespread in the US but only regional and is lovely and charming but definitely non-standard English. I could name several other non-standard forms you'd shy away from. How about "youse" another plural form of "you"? And why do we have to specify that the "you" is plural. English speakers do very well without it. And in Greek we have: "είναι" is it "he" "she" or "it"? You don't have people insisting we always use the pronouns "αυτός/αυτή/αυτός" which are correct and standard Greek.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RobFourie

There are many Englishes (See David Crystal's book called "The stories of English" The point is to ACCEPT these forms as correct but of course, never teach them as standards. My point being, to make the learning of Greek as accessible to as many people as possible, regardless of their type of English. The point, after all, is for people to Learn Greek in this module, not English as it is conceived of by non-native users of English. Here in Ireland, we use the archaic plural form of English, "ye" and it is considered incorrect to say you when you mean you plural in Hiberno-English. The Spanish Duolingo module accepts "y'all" and I cannot understand why there is no consistency from module to module.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sdr51

Well, I don't speak for DL, but while I've been rather following the line that Jaye16 was taking, you make a very strong point. I can see how that would cause learning difficulties in Ireland. But I can also see how allowing too many regional characteristics would cause learning difficulties outside those regions. Even as an American, I don't use y'all, and most don't, though there are some who do, but informally only. And while "ye" would be correct for the plural form in Ireland, it would be considered incorrect in the US, and probably some other places.

As one who loves all the differences among the many types of English, I don't like to naysay you. But I can sympathize with why DL chooses to be more restrictive, as its teaching is international in scope. And as an American, I always find myself somewhat embarrassed to be arguing in favor of uniform standards for everyone, when those standards so often come from the US. Because I'm one American who does not want to spread Americanism everywhere, but to preserve in each that which makes us unique.

So, your argument is too good. It puts us all in a bind.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

Following along the lines that you have taken I think it would be unfair for Duo to accept a regional non-standard form and present it as the normal standard. I imagine a non-native English speaker learning "y'all, yous or ye" then getting out into the world and not hearing these and not knowing something might be plural. As an American, I can sympathize with your belief that we should not favor any one form.

Another point I've brought up before is that the majority of native English speakers from all parts of the world manage very well without a plural "you" just as Greeks manage with "είσαι" which can mean: "he is, she is, it is, they are". "Y'll and youse and I imagine ye would be rejected in any formal writing and while we don't promote formal writing we'd be doing our learners a disservice making them dependent on an informal, regional form.

And finally, I cannot understand why there is so much emphasis on y'll and not on any of the other common regional expressions. Let's not start on those. BEslang
AEslang


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sdr51

By all means, Jaye, I agree. I never meant to say we "should not favor any one form". I meant to say that all the forms that are normative where they exist are acceptable in their own context, as I assume David Crystal's book is saying. And thereby, I was supporting Rob's argument, even calling it "too good", for the world's a big and varied place.

But the bind it puts us into is that DL can't function effectively if it accepts every variant that is acceptable. Part of the solution is just as you say, to present one normal, standard form. But the other part of the solution (which I see I really left out), is that all of us here on DL trying to learn need to see that if DL rejects an answer, that is, fails to accept it, that does not mean that the answer is necessarily "unacceptable". It means that it does not conform to the normal, standard form. That itself may or may not mean that it is not acceptable in any non-standard derivative form, but it is not DL's concern to teach how to distinguish all of that. Instead, we all have to recognize where the limits are, why they are, and what use they are, so that we can apply the useful learning here to our own worldwide application of it in our lives.

That sounds like a real load - and it is. But if we can stop being put off by a computer's rejection of an answer and treat it as something of a dance, I think we've got a better chance to making use of the whole package. Because in my experience, all of learning is just such a dance.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RobFourie

I think the main point to remember here is that this module is for teaching Greek, not English. The argument is only for the acceptance of a wider range of correct responses, not for the teaching of those responses as standard form. When the tree bends in the wind, it will not snap.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sdr51

Sure Rob, on the surface. But no one can ever learn another language if they don't also end up learning things they didn't know about their own. It stretches us in all directions. And the wind blows where it will.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/hec10tor

the Irish module accepts y'all as well for you plural forms. As a mexican I've heard y'all from Gringos, but I've never heard "ye" before.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Nikolakiis

I wrote "Y'all are girls" and got it wrong.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

Sorry, y'all is a very regional variety of English and not used on Duo. English speakers manage quite well without it and we don't see the cause to introduce it to Duo. In this sentence for example the noun was plural.

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