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  5. "הגבר ישן בזמן שהילדים אוכלים…

"הגבר ישן בזמן שהילדים אוכלים."

Translation:The man sleeps while the children eat.

August 31, 2016

34 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BrunnoHC

Shouldn't "the man sleeps when the children eat" be accepted?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AlmogL

I think it should.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Theresa754142

“While” implies a set point in time, whereas “when” often means “Whenever the children eat, the man sleeps.”


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kutjul

Wouldnt it be יושן as opposed to ישן?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AlmogL

The verb form יושן is very controversial, in some linguistic communities it is very common, in others it is considered an abomination. In fact there is nothing wrong with it, but if you want to make sure that you not only are correct but you also sound correct to everyone, use ישן.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/synp
  • 543

definitely the abomination. The יושן form is used as an imitation of baby talk. Don't use it at all.

http://hebrew-academy.org.il/2011/07/07/גָ%D6%BCדֵל-או-ג%D6%BCוֹדֵל-יָשֵׁן-או-יוֹשֵׁן/


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AlmogL

Let's agree to disagree. To me, language is what people speak, and there are differences between different communities. The Hebrew Academy is not the language, it's just a bunch of people.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/synp
  • 543

Have you ever heard anyone over 5 years old say יושן? I sure haven't


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AniOhevYayin

By "abomination" do you mean problematic? Is it a grammatical issue or a religious one? Are we talking about plene spelling or something more? Is it similar to אמן which is pronounced as if there is a waw? Please explain what you are talking about.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/synp
  • 543

The correct form of the present tense male singular or the verb root י-ש-נ is יָשֵן.

The rules that make it so are arcane, but it has to do with י being the first letter in the root. Most verbs, like the ש-מ-ר that is used for so many examples, have a different form of present male singular: שוֹמֵר.

So children who are not aware of the arcane rules and who haven't yet heard the correct form often enough form the word יוֹשֵן.

When adults use it, either they're extremely ignorant, or they're mimicking baby talk. A comparable English thing would be to say "all by my lonesome"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AniOhevYayin

Thanks. That helps. Have a lingot for taking the time to explain.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Miriam220166

Thanks for this very clear explanation, you obviously know what you are talking about.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Theresa754142

Or “I’m going beddy bye”.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/rose1939

Literally translated this reads "the man sleeps while that the children eat. Is the ש in שהילדים extraneous?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/synp
  • 543

No. A literal translation is: The man sleeps at the time that the children eat.

The shin is necessary.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AniOhevYayin

As synp noted, בזמן ש goes together. Here's a link where people discuss that syntagm: https://hinative.com/en-US/questions/14153427


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BenSchneid11

How does this use of בזמן differ in meaning or tone from if כש were used instead


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mgrdAT

I think that both "when" and "כש-" are more often used when you talk about a point in time, whereas "while" and "בזמן ש" usually refer to a period of time.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

I think that "while" and "בזמן ש" are when stressing an activity that happened as a background to the action that's the focus of the sentence. It's almost necessarily a continuous action over a period of time, but it can be quite a short time: "While Bolt ran the 100 meters, I held my breath". Other than this special case, you can talk about very long period of time and use "when"/כש: "When dinosaurs walked over the earth, more of the earth was covered with trees."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AniOhevYayin

Thanks. Very helpful. It's interesting to me that in some languages these constructions require taking into consideration mood, either the indicative or subjunctive mood in subordinate clauses when referring to the past (e.g., Latin "cum" clauses with the "sequence of tenses"), whereas Hebrew as a Semitic language has no subjunctive and so had to communicate matters such as mood, modality, and durative past action in subordinate clauses in other ways. Even though modern Israeli Hebrew as a revival language is famously influenced by European languages, particularly the use of participles, there are semantic and morphological restrictions on Hebrew borrowing from European languages. I think that the heavy use of particles, adverbs, and participles is Israeli Hebrew's way of trying to compensate for no subjunctive.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Theresa754142

What is כש? I looked on Google translate and Pealim, but I couldn’t find it, so without vowels I’m stuck.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/synp
  • 543

It's the prefix form of the proposition כאשר, meaning "when" or "at the same time as"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Theresa754142

What are the niqqud?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/synp
  • 543

כְּשֶ

כַּאֲשֶׁר


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AllanDuniz

The word whilst is rarely used in North America


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/synp
  • 543

Right. And it doesn't appear here either. Why did you bring it up?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Theresa754142

I only see “whilst” in writing.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AllanDuniz

I brought up because it is how the correction reads.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Yeruchum

Why is there a ש by הילדים?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YardenNB

You can look at it as a set phrase, בזמן ש; or you can pretend that English didn't the preposition "while", and you'd use "at the/a time that the children" instead. You need the "that" - and here is the Hebrew ש.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/emile.zvi

The more exact translation is "The man sleeps at time that the children eat"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Theresa754142

“Sleeps at time that” is not English. “Sleeps at the time that“ is okay but awkward.

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