"Η ζακέτα και το μπουφάν."

Translation:The sweater and the jacket.

September 16, 2016

48 Comments
This discussion is locked.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KatharinaM882088

I have problems to understand the difference between this different garments. English is not my native language. I tried google image search. As I understood: ζακέτα is used for a knitted jacket, μπουφάν for a sportiv jacket. Then there is the greek word σακάκι, which is a more formal jacket. But maybe I am all wrong!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

Actually, you have described all these items very well. Yes, there is a problem because so many of the words resemble those in other languages but the items might be slightly different.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/cparticle

As Greek American. To me it seems like the poverty of American English usage in this area is causing sweater to be included with ζακέτα. The tendency of any English dialect to use sweater for both a pullover and cardigan doesn't make a correct translation. It seems inherently wrong that "The sweater and the jacket." Should be accepted as a correct answer for"Η ζακέτα και το μπουφάν". I think only adds confusion to a person learning the language. This seems like a situation where less is more. Including sweater with πουλόβερ and cardigan with ζακέτα this avoids a situation where jacket wouldn't be used with ζακέτα. This might upset some people because there usage of sweater isn't exactly represented but sometimes when learning a new language there is not a one to one mapping. As this lesson is about learning Greek and not about English it feels like the English should be trimmed to match the Greek.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

Surprisingly this skill has been one of the most difficult to create. Since so many words for clothes in Greek are loan words from other languages their meanings overlap. And since we tried to incorporate British English with the American we had a hard time coming up with definitions to suit all purposes.

As an American living in Greece for many years, I recognize that a "ζακέτα" is what we call a "sweater". It's a knit garment for the upper body with buttons or a zipper and is not a pullover. In a reply to another query on this subject, I specifically state that a "pullover" is "just that a knit garment without buttons that you pull over the head" (11 months ago). We do not accept "pullover or "pull over" as a correct translation for "ζακέτα". For that Greek has its own word "πουλόβερ". However, a recent search on google shows even "pullovers" as "sweaters" so we may have to rethink this.

In New York where I come from, a "sweater" is also called a "cardigan" so I accepted that as a translation for "ζακέτα".

I had questioned the use of "jacket" which sounds so much like "ζακέτα" because we also have "ζακάκη" in Greek to describe a "jacket" as for example in a suit but the google images for "ζακέτα" includes such items. So, if that is the Greek usage that is what we need to show. Our emphasis is on the learner understanding the Greek which is why we use so many English words to cover the meaning.

For further clarification please google "ζακέτα" and check out the images. These are what you'll find if you're shopping for such a garment. These are what we want the learners to recognize.

As for the use of American English which is the default language for Duo we are very careful to always use it as the primary definition for each word.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kags
  • 480

Well, one silver lining: I've just worked out what to call an item of clothing that I bought in Corfu back in May. It's knitted, it's zipped and it has a hood. To my British English mind it's not a cardigan (knitted, but not usually zipped and/or hooded), it's not a hoody (usually fleecy or sweatshirt material) ... so obviously it must be a ζακέτα (particularly with Greek heritage!) and that will nicely avoid confusion with anything else I own!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

I'd say you nailed it. Seriously, do that google image search. Almost anything worn on the upper body gets called a ζακέτα these days. Oh, and μπλούζα that's pretty much a man for all seasons. Thanks for the input and με γεια (wear it in good health) as we say in Greece.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

Maybe you're not using Duolingo right. Have a look at these tips and you'll find things are much easier than you think.

These hints will show you how to always have the right translation. TIPS TO HELP YOU LEARN

1 Use the Drop-Down hints to help you translate. Pass your cursor over a word and a list of translations will appear.

~~Always use the top word/phrase. This will assure that you always have the right translation. It's the secret to success. Do not hesitate to use these as often as you need to.

2 Read the Tips & notes, on the first page of each lesson you’ll see TIPS. Click on that.

3 Always read the comments before posting. Check the heading on the page to see the sentence and its translation. Click on any blue words for more definitions.

4 If your translation is rejected you should carefully compare what you wrote with the answer given. If you do not see a mistake use the Report options at the foot of the exercise page to Report issues such as My answer should be accepted.

How to make a report.

We moderators cannot see your sentence therefore before you make a comment you should have made a REPORT. Then post on the comment page.

Here's how to REPORT.

Go to the bottom of the exercise page where you'll see "REPORT" Click on that:

Then choose what you want to REPORT:

-My answer should be accepted. This is the one you should click on if your translation was not accepted.

After choosing the REPORT you want to make you should post on the comment page.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Mark_B420

If "anorak" is correct for μπουφάν, then "coat" would be correct in American English, I would think. (I see an anorak as a very specific type of heavy coat, like an Eskimo would wear, and a totally different genus than a jacket…)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jeanprendiville

Mbylander, I laughed when I read your description, we had a prime minister popularly called " the anorak" because to prove his working class credentials he always wore a zipped up jacket!
Long live diversity!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

As you can see from the stream there are various views on names of clothing. You will also note that we made a serious effort to come to the most acceptable name for each item. In this case, we have used "short coat" for "μπουφάν" it is in the incubator as a correct translation. Hope that helps.

.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dora.18.09

Ζακέτα = Cardigan, thin jacket open in front from top to buttom (it doesn't matter if it closes with buttons or zipper)

Μπουφάν = thick winter sports jacket. Usually plastic but it can be made of cloth too. Closes with zipper, ideal for sports, winter, the mountains

Σακάκι = blazer.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

That might be so in your nitch of the world but in other places, these words are used differently. Thanks for your input.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dora.18.09

?? Lol I am Greek! I translated the words as they are understood universally in the country itself. A simple googling confirms what I say but you're not only ignorant but impolite too.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

So, disagreeing with you constitutes "ignorance"? And you call me impolite.

Yeah, I live in Greece too. But why would you use "blazer"? Σακάκι = jacket. Look it up and check the images. I've been working on this skill for 5 years and we keep getting contradictory descriptions. Many young people call all winter outerwear...Μπουφάν. I'm glad you're trying to help but it seems the namesof clothes are very mobile. Today's shirt is tomorrows "top" yes in Greece...τοπ...I saw it in store windows on Tsimiski.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dora.18.09

(Detailed explanation in 2nd part of this reply) I'm sorry but I happen to be native Greek and not just residing in Greece. Furthermore, I also happen to be bilingual in Greek and English (UK) and a certified translator. So its rather impolite to talk about my .. "nitch" of the world (I guess you meant niche but it's not used like that), to downvote and to call me wrong without checking online dictionaries at all. You left your comment within seconds of my reply.

Σακακι= blazer. There is NO other way to translate it. Any online dictionary would give Only that translation. A short walk at Zara would also prove my point.

Ζακετα is more complicated but in UK it's widely understood as cardigan. Calling it a jacket puts it in a more general category where it could be mistaken for μπουφάν.

Which brings us to the most difficult to explain. That's why I gave such a detailed description. Μπουφάν IS the quintessential winter jacket. It is thick and has padding while the cardigan hasn't or has very minimal.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16
  1. Thanks for the niche...that was a big mistake.

  2. I didn't downvote until you called me ignorant. Did you call me ignorant for the spelling error or because I disagreed with your view of what each item of clothes is called on a course that reaches learners from around the world?

  3. I still disagree...in my parlance a "blazer" is a type of "jacket" and a "jacket" is what one wears with a suit so I feel "jacket" is a better translation as "blazer" is too specific. I've come to avoid expressions like....'no other way'. This world is huge, English is an international unit of expression and there are many more versions than we know that need to be treated with respect.

I think I have already mentioned that the team did a lot of research before setting up this skill. We contacted colleagues in the UK as well as the US, and later had input from other English speaking countries.

Yeah, I left a rapid comment because I"ve been fighting this battle...the one where I beg people to be open-minded to new ideas...for a long time. So, it may have been fast but that doesn't mean it was without forethought.

My experience, as I've mentioned, is that nowadays youngsters are calling all winter top garments μπουφάν. And even that might change over time. A "jacket" is more often known as a "σακάκι" I double-checked...here

I thank you again and would hate to lose your valuable input because of my heavy-handedness. That would be doing a disservice to the learners on this course. Feel free to share your ideas, it's through the input of the community that Duo gains s great deal of its alternative material.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dora.18.09

I just saw this and I cant reply directly under your last comment. A bit belated Ill give my answers below. - To your 2nd point: I was actually thinking of not continuing this since it was your very downvoting that led me to call you "ignorant" as it can be seen from my immediate reply. I'm surprised you say you downvoted me later over my reaction.

My perspective is this: - I have no interest or time for arguing. I'm a certified translator, bilingual (trilingual actually) in Greek and English and use this course as a learning technique to help me clear my mind and absorb other languages better (I'm doing multiple courses so this is my break) - When it comes to a blazer, the only synonym in Greek is "σακακι". This is how me and any other translator would translate it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blazer This is what any Greek understands as "σακακι" and only that: Semi formal or formal upper garment made of quality fabric, almost exclusively with buttons or (if casual) without, often part of a suit and worn eg. by grooms, politicians or semi formally in parties. Zara online catalogues and shops always refer to this sort of suit jackets as blazers and while in English it can be described in various ways, in Greek it's only ever called "σακακι". If a Greek asks for a "σακακι" he means that clothing item from the wikipedia Blazer article.

Anyway, thank You for your work here. I respect your patience in working here for seemingly quite a long time and actively helping. My only disappointment is over the above two issues. Ultimately though, in the grand scheme of things I feel that our energies are better concentrated elsewhere. This is a great course overall and I got my English best friend to try it. He's doing great!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/konix89

I put "The jacket and the coat" and it was counted as incorrect. From reading most of these comments it seems to me this should have been counted as correct. Just throwing it out there.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

We have put more research into this sentence than a scientific experiment. It seems around the world these words are used for various items of clothing. Here is what we have:

for ζακέτα - [sweater/cardigan/jerkin/jacket/jumper]

for μπουφάν- [jacket/short coat/parka/anorak].

Note that we have "short coat" If you check out the images for μπουφάν on the net you'll see why here.

I'll also add that on the new tree which we are preparing this sentence will be "hat and gloves" or some other easily recognized items. :) Sorry, for the confusion.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/wjam1995

I understand from reading the comments on every mention of ζακέτα that this is a contentious topic, so I'm just asking for clarification here. For the purposes of this post, I'll be using "pullover" to refer to a warm garment pulled over the head, with no continuous zip/buttons extending the length of the front, and "cardigan" to refer to a garment that has buttons down the front, and that is put on in the same manner as a button-up shirt or coat.

(For perspective, I am British-American, but I've spent more time in the UK and, while I understand and can use American English, I default to British English most of the time).

I was talking to my Anglo-Greek friend (who lived in Greece until the age of 18), and she was adamant that the translation of sweater was incorrect for ζακέτα - she said that the only correct translation would be "cardigan". In my experience with British English, sweater refers exclusively to a "pullover"-type garment (the most natural word for me to use would be "jumper", but I understand that has a different meaning in American English), so it's understandable that she would feel that the translation is incorrect.

In my experience with American English, "sweater" tends to be a more general category, that includes both "pullovers" and "cardigans". I've checked several US English dictionaries (Merriam-Webster, Dictionary.com, the Cambridge American English Dictionary, the Oxford Advanced American Dictionary, and Macmillan's American English Dictionary) as well as with friends I have in the US, and all of them seem to agree that "sweater" can be used for both "pullover"-type garments and "cardigan"-type garments.

Bearing all of this in mind, I wanted to ask why "sweater" is an allowed translation of ζακέτα. I'm aware that in jaye16's personal experience of having grown up in New York, "sweater" only refers to cardigans, and does not seem to extend to "pullovers" as well. However, based on multiple AE dictionaries, my personal experience of living in the US and that of the Americans I have consulted, it seems that broader American usage outside of the New York region suggests that sweater is too broad a translation of ζακέτα, and should therefore not be accepted on this basis. (I guess it would be analogous to accepting fruit as a translation of μήλο - the statement that "an apple is a fruit" is not incorrect, but translating μήλο as fruit would be incorrect).

Given, then, that the translation of sweater appears to be inaccurate for most American people (not to mention actively misleading to British people), is there a reason for keeping it as the preferred translation? I confess that I haven't heard the word "cardigan" used as widely in the US, but it seems to be a word familiar to most Americans. Would it not make more sense to have "cardigan" as the first translation, and then perhaps consider having "sweater" as an accepted variant?

I also checked to see how other sources translate ζακέτα - for this, I used lexilogos.com, which links to five bilingual dictionaries and three machine translation services. Of the dictionaries, four out of five of them give the first-choice translation as "cardigan", while the fifth gives "jerkin"; only one of the five lists "sweater" as a possible translation. Of the three machine-translation services, two give "jacket" as the first-choice translation, and the other gives "cardigan"; only one service lists "sweater" as an option (although it does not mention "cardigan" at all), and the other lists "cardigan" as the only alternative to "jacket". On this basis, it would seem that the consensus translation (listed as the first choice in 5/8 sources) would be "cardigan", while "sweater" does not appear as the primary translation in any source, and appears in the secondary translation in only 2/8 sources.

I'm aware that the line of reasoning I've used depends on some assumptions, which I've tried to support with as much evidence as possible, but please let me know whether any of them feel unreasonable - I'm not trying to assert that my way is the correct way but to understand why sweater has been chosen as the first choice translation.

(Also, it's not relevant to this post, but thank you for all of your hard work on the Greek course, I've found it very useful!)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

Thank you for your concerns and all your efforts concerning the word "sweater" which we too have found a very troublesome word.

I'm aware that in jaye16's personal experience of having grown up in New York, "sweater" only refers to cardigans, and does not seem to extend to "pullovers" as well

Have you, however, failed to notice the other words we accept as correct. Our translations are not based on the personal views of one member of the team. Below you will see the other words accepted for "ζακέτα" some of which were suggested by other members of the Duolingo community...but I wonder if you have read all the comments.?

I have been a translator for over 56 years and my translations have been of a far more serious nature then clothing but I like to think I never look at any part of my work as secondary.

And yes I am from NY and have degrees from universities there. I also am an official translator, EFL teacher, and teacher trainer as well as an official EFL examiner.

So, as I was saying after due research we settled on the main translation for the Greek word "ζακέτα" as "sweater", we also accept other translations to cater to our worldwide community....see below.

You used lexilogos.com, which you will see is recommended in our list of resources...see below. So, of course, we have used that too. Sorry, you went to all that trouble. If you have done the number of translations we on this team have done you will have come to realize that no bilingual dictionary is 100% reliable. You will also note that certain words... in particular items of clothing ....tend to change over time and from place to place.

Check out the resources if you haven't already, although you should have before making your comments.

>https://forum.duolingo.com/topic/936

among others.

With all due respect to your friend who lived in Greece we think we've done enough research and have enough experience, not to mention education to warrant the translations offered here. You will see we cater first to US English since that is the official language of Duolingo but we do not by any means leave out...British, Australian, or any other versions that we find available or suggested.

As alternatives, you will also find....

[**sweater/cardigan/jerkin/jacket/jumper/cardi/jersey/pullover**]

acceptable transactions.

What are your views on the above choices? Have we forgotten anything? Please let us know and we'll be glad to add them.

And one or two final questions. Having read the other comments on this page do they give you the impression that we are cavalier in our choices on Duolingo?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/wjam1995

Thank you for taking the time to reply to me Jaye16.

I did read all of the comments before posting, but since you suggested I missed something, I've gone over them in greater detail. Admittedly, it is a biased sample, as people who take no issue with the translation "sweater" are less likely to post, but I haven't found another person agreeing with you that "sweater" is an accurate translation, which is what motivated me to post.

I can briefly run through what I've learned in this thread, sorted by oldest post first.

The first post asks about "jacket" and "jumper", and your reply talks about why "jumper" is inappropriate, and "jacket and jacket" would be misleading, so "sweater" is necessary. The reply to that suggests "cardigan" is a more appropriate translation. In your reply to that, you assert that "a sweater and a cardigan are basically the same" - this is the assumption throughout that I have taken issue with, as I have yet to find a source claiming they are the same in either British or American English. In American English, according to the 5 US English dictionaries consulted, a cardigan is a sweater, but a sweater is not necessarily a cardigan, it could also be a pullover. The reply to that comment disputes that "sweater" and "cardigan" are synonymous, but specifically makes reference to British English, and since your primary focus appears to be American English, we can disregard it. Your reply to that, however, states that "sweater is generic for a knitted top" - you explicitly state here that cardigan and sweater are not synonymous. The reply to that comment is another person saying that the use of "sweater" is confusing, and that "cardigan" is a more appropriate translation for that user.

The second thread of comments refers only to μποθφάν, so I'll leave that aside.

The third thread is by someone who struggled with the native English terms, and is not so relevant, but I'll highlight that you accepted that "ζακέτα is used for a knitted jacket", which is an accurate description of a cardigan.

The next thread once again seems to pertain to μπουφάν, so I'll skip it.

The next thread begins with a Greek-American saying that "sweater" is an inaccurate translation, and that "cardigan" is a more appropriate translation; the commenter also makes the (in my view very valid) point that a less accurate translation should not be accepted just because it uses a word more familiar to English-speakers. In your reply to this comment, you state that based on your personal experience, a ζακέτα is a sweater; however, the definition you go on to give for ζακέτα ("a knit garment for the upper body with buttons or a zipper" that "is not a pullover") more closely matches "cardigan", which cannot be synonymous with "pullover" in the same way that "sweater" is. You then go on to state that "pullover" is not an accepted translation, however you may have to rethink this in the future, because of the shift in the meaning of the term "pullover". You explicitly state that a search for "pullovers" returns "sweaters" - this is a confusing sentence because you haven't been consistent over what you consider a "sweater", but I can see two possible interpretations. The first is that you're using "sweater" to mean "cardigan", against the broadly accepted American usage of "sweater" to refer to both "pullovers" and "cardigans". The second is that "pullover" is becoming synonymous with "sweater", in that both words can be used to refer to "pullovers" and "cardigans". I assume that this is why you have changed your position on "pullover" being an acceptable translation of ζακέτα. You then state that you've accepted "cardigan" as an acceptable secondary translation. Most of the rest of your comment is not relevant, but the last bit, where you explicitly state that American English must form the primary definition for each word. The reply to that comment suggests that "cardigan" is not always an appropriate translation - which is a very valid point. Your reply to that comment seems to agree that there's no appropriate single translation.

The next thread says that "sweater" is not an appropriate translation, although the author implies that they are not American, and since you have said American English is your main priority, we can disregard it.

The next comment pertains to μπουφάν, so I'll skip it.

The next comment is from an Anglo-Greek translator (though this isn't stated in the leading message). This talks about the translation of three words, so I'll focus on ζακέτα again. You note in your reply that the language surrounding clothes is fluid - another important point. The commenter states that "cardigan" is the most appropriate term for ζακέτα in the UK, but there is no 1-1 perfect translation. Again, we'll disregard this though, since your primary focus appears to be American English.

I'm guessing the next thread has been edited, because the top comment is something about being hangry, and all subsequent comments are about the use of the word "cardigan". You state again that American English is your primary concern, and you accept other translations (such as British English) as secondary translations.

The final thread (before this one) states that "sweater" is an inappropriate translation, but once again, the person posting implies that they're referring to British English, so we'll leave that aside.

I hope that you will accept that I have done my research and read all the comments in this thread. Indeed, the analysis of these comments influenced my approach in my first post. That's why I specifically tackled the question at hand from an American English perspective. My question is not as to whether "cardigan" should be accepted as a translation, it's as to whether "sweater" is the most appropriate primary translation.

I don't question your qualifications, and I'm only going to such length over this issue because I feel that if a community resource such as Duolingo can be made better, then we should all aim to help out.

I also understand that no single bilingual dictionary is 100% reliable. That's why I used lexilogos, which refers to five separate dictionaries and three online translation services, none of which give "sweater" as a first-choice translation. The only source I have found in my research for this that claims the best primary translation of ζακέτα is "sweater" is Duolingo. I'm not claiming to have researched every source, and I'm sure you know more than me on this topic, so I'm asking why you've come to the conclusion that "sweater" is the best translation, other than conversations with people you know.

I thought that, given your dedication to how American English should be the primary translation for each word, perhaps "cardigan" wasn't a widely used term in American English. To check this, I used Google's Ngram Viewer, which scans books over the years to check the relative frequency with which different words are used. Scanning American English specifically, I found that over the last 50-odd years, "sweater" is between 5 and 10 times more commonly used than "cardigan". On the surface, this may seem to suggest that "cardigan" is not commonly used in the US, but I'd argue that, since "sweater" is a more general term than "cardigan", you'd expect increased frequency of the use for that term. Indeed, taking an analogous example with the word "car", the words "pickup" (or "pick-up", I checked both), "convertible", "cabriolet" and "coupe" all appear far less frequently than "car" (about 25 times less frequently, depending on the word). This suggests that "cardigan" is indeed understood in the US; I will acknowledge, though, that a potential caveat of this analysis is that it does not account for regional variation in the US. I would still argue, though, that with such frequent usage in the US, "cardigan" is a commonly-accepted word in American English.

The eventual conclusion of this thread seems to be that there is no exact translation for the word ζακέτα - I think we both agree on that. We also agree that "cardigan" is a good approximation to ζακέτα, in that both words refer to knitted garments that fasten at the front. Where we appear to disagree is on whether "sweater" is an appropriate primary translation. You acknowledge that "sweater" refers to any knitted garment in your previous comments (although you don't appear to be consistent on this view, sometimes suggesting that it is directly synonymous with "cardigan"). I think that we can both agree, based on our own experiences and the multiple US dictionaries I consulted, that "sweater" refers to any knitted garment. I hope that we can agree that "cardigan" refers to a knitted garment that fastens at the front. Thus, it would be logical that a "cardigan" is a type of "sweater", but that the two words are not synonyms, and that "cardigan" is the closest translation to ζακέτα. I'd understand resisting assigning "cardigan" as the primary choice translation if it were not a widely used word in American English, but given there is a more accurate word that is used in American English, what is your justification for using "sweater" instead of "cardigan" as the primary translation?

Just to answer the questions at the end: my views on the alternative translations are not relevant, as my question is solely about the primary translation. I have (as I hope I have made clear) very carefully read the comments on the page before commenting, and only did so because I felt they did not satisfactorily address my concerns. I do not think you are cavalier in your choices, but even well-reasoned choices can be incorrect. That is why I have done my best to support my case with multiple, reputable sources, as opposed to solely referring to the experiences of the people I know. I read elsewhere that you've asked other people "to be open-minded to new ideas", and I hope that the research I did before I commented proves that I've adopted that approach. I've also tried to be open about any flaws in my argument. I hope that you can extend the same courtesy of open-mindedness when you read this reply.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PoetaPerduta

Bless you, it was a joy reading this; somehow I fear it may be lost on certain American ears but you have the southern hemispheres wholehearted support!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

If we could accept more than one primary word we would. But we work for an American company and American English is the primary language. It's nothing personal.

When I was living in London I did my best to conform to what made my colleguars and friends comfortable.

When I taught around Europe most of our books were BRitish.

We are trying to do what is best for all our learners.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

This from my second comment...my first was another subject

I recognize that a "ζακέτα" is what we call a "sweater". ////// also "In New York where I come from, a "sweater" is also called a "cardigan" so I accepted that as a translation for "ζακέτα"."

Your reply to that comment seems to agree that there's no appropriate single translation
Which is why we now have about 6 words accepted You state again that American English is your primary concern, and you accept other translations (such as British English) as secondary translations.

Yes, Duolingo teaches Americasn English but we also accept most other proper usage.

Yes, we too use Ngram/

The issue here is not "sweater " over "cardigan" but what the primary translation for "ζακέτα" σηοθλδ be

I showed you that we accept a variety of words. what more could we do.

[sweater/cardigan/jerkin/jacket/jumper/cardi/jersey/pullover]


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/wjam1995

I could not agree more - the issue is what the primary translation for ζακέτα should be. That is why I have gone to great lengths to try and understand why "sweater" is the primary translation, when "cardigan" is (I would argue) a more suitable word.

I admit that I have no professional translation experience as you do, which is why I've tried to be as certain of my case before making it as possible. The criteria I have chosen for choosing a primary translation are a) how closely a word corresponds with the word in another language, and b) whether the word is recognisable to speakers of the language. By this second criterion, I mean, for instance, that I wouldn't choose troglodyte as the primary translation for τρωγλοδύτης, because caveman would be more familiar to most speakers and has the same meaning. If these are invalid criteria or there is something I am missing, please set me straight.

So, onto considering whether cardigan or sweater is a better primary translation. Let's tackle the second criterion first: are both words recognisable to speakers of American English? On the basis of the evidence from Google Ngrams and your personal testimony of having heard the word used in New York, I would argue that they both are. The first criterion is more tricky, but I'll use Merriam-Webster to illustrate my point here. The definition of ζακέτα that you have given in this thread is "a knit garment for the upper body with buttons or a zipper". According to Merriam-Webster, a sweater is "a knitted or crocheted jacket or pullover", and a cardigan is "a usually collarless sweater or jacket that opens the full length of the center front". We can neglect the fact that these are not particularly good definitions, being slightly circular in nature, or I can consult a different dictionary if you prefer, but I think the ambiguity in this definition gives your position the best possible support (compare, for instance, the definitions in the American Heritage dictionary). Only the "sweater" definition makes reference to the garment being knitted, but "cardigan" relies on the definition of "sweater", therefore it is implied that it too is knitted. Only "cardigan", however, opens completely at the front. A sweater may do this, but it may not - it could also be a pullover. Since ζακέτες must open at the front, that suggests that cardigan is closer in meaning to ζακέτα than sweater, and, therefore, that cardigan is a better primary translation than sweater.

That's my position. I want to understand, however, why you feel "sweater" is a better primary translation than "cardigan". In the other comments you've made so far, you've stated that you came to this conclusion after consulting different people, and that it was a team decision. But that misses my central question: how did you come to this decision? No source other than Duolingo that I've found has "sweater" as the primary translation; most seem to prefer "cardigan", with "jacket" as a second choice. You said yourself in a prior comment that you consider "cardigan" an accurate American English (or at least New York English) translation, so I'd like to understand why you prefer "sweater" as a better primary translation.

Once again, the list of words you accept is not relevant, I'm only talking about what the primary translation would be. I'm not saying that "sweater" is not a possible translation, but that "cardigan" is a better translation for speakers of American English (it's also a better translation for speakers of other varieties of English, but you've made it clear that that's a secondary concern).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kags
  • 480

I think it’s time to accept that ζακέτα is untranslatable ... and we need to start using “zacketa” in English for anything the Greeks would call ζακέτα ... and begin the campaign to get “zacketa” into English dictionaries (proposed definition? “A Greek item of clothing, whatever they say it is”!

But seriously, Jaye, I think the list above probably covers just about everything.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

Thanks Kags, you're right and your support means a lot to us. And what we should do ...to save us from the the word "ζακέτα" is to leave it out of the new tree. If someone needs that kind of "top" then they go into a store and point and say..."I want to buy that."

Ok, just joking, but it's not fair to spend so much time on one word.

Hope you enjoy learning and let us know how we can improve the course.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PoetaPerduta

Don't comment when your hangry kids


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kags
  • 480

Cardigan is also accepted ... which is what a knitted garment with buttons would be called in British English ... so you don’t necessarily need to change your vocabulary.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

Duolingo does teach American English however, it does not concentrate on that alone. We make every effort to include all versions of English.

We have done a great deal of research on this skill including consulting British friends for correct nomenclature. We then went on to continue adding new vocabulary to accommodate as many styles as possible. Here are the words accepted for this sentence. The [sweater/cardigan/jerkin/jacket/jumper/card/jerseyi] and the [jacket/short coat/parka/anorak]

As a native New Yorker I wouldn't know a "jerkin" if I fell over it,and a "jumper" for me is sleeveless dress worn with a blouse inside, "jersey" is a kind of fabric for underwear but we happily included them all here out of a wish to embrace fairness for all English speakers.

We make these efforts in all areas of the courses...from "sweets", to "pudding" (as a dessert) to "lifts", and "flats".

We always use "shall" for the first person simple present tense. We always include "colour", "honour", "flavour" etc. We have "bonnets" on our cars, we go to the "theatre" as well as the "theater", and include "programme" and "settee", and "sitting room", "drawing room" .

And of course, include..."mum" and "mummy" I could go on and on.

Did you use a word that was rejected? What was it? Perhaps we need to add it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PoetaPerduta

Keep doing what you're doing Jaye16; I honestly didn't read through this thread very well and I can see how many people have jumped down your throat about this. My input did come off as snarky without my wanting it to and I really do apologise! I tried jacket at first and it didn't go through but I'm sure the app was just having a moment - as we all do evidently, reading through the chaos in here. Please take no heed at the harsh comments, people forget sometimes that there are human faces behind these profiles and you're doing an impeccable job at being helpful and polite despite it all!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

Thanks so much for getting back to me. Yes, we are all volunteers here working, of course, under the guidance of the Duolingo system. Your apology is accepted and very much appreciated. We hope you go on to learn more and enjoy it too. If y ou have any questions, and indeed anything to add please don't hesitate. Help from the community is a big part of what we do.

Btw, if "jacket" wasn" accepted, which it should have been considering it's included in the database, there might have been an error. Please get into the habit ... if that should happen with any sentence...of using the REPORT option at the bottom of the exercise page.

Choose the "My sentence should be accepted." option that way we can see your sentence and make any corrections to the course necessary.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lfd

Why not ‘The jacket and the jumper.’?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

The problem is in the definitions not only the dictionary but the colloquial and the British vs Amer. usage. I've just done a bit (a lot of) online searching and this is the simplest and clearest list I can give reflecting contemporary and international usage. Briefly:

  1. ζακέτα= sweater, jacket, cardigan
    2.μπουφάν = jacket, short coat, anorak, parka but not jumper because in BE it's knitted and without buttons and in AE a kind of dress.

All this will now be reflected in the drop down (hover) definitions. Of course, we don't want "The jacket and the jacket." So, "The sweater and the jacket." says it best. Hope this helps.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GeorgiosDC

So, a sweater can have buttons as well? Because a ζακέτα (always) has buttons (it's a cardigan as I think of it, I just don't know if cardigan is both UK and US English and if yes, if there's a difference between the two). Otherwise it's a πουλόβερ. Or a καζάκα (sweater vest, again with no buttons).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

What appeared at first to be a simple task turned out to be difficult considering the various terms for articles of clothing so using the net and a lot of images and I came up with many varieties. Then I emailed a British friend who gave good advice on what each item was called on that end and sent links to be viewed and, in the end, we decided this was the most general and authentic list. I won't be surprised if someone says: "Where I come from we ..." As I see it we've covered the two main English usages and are ok other items can be added if they fit.

A sweater and a cardigan are basically the same, a pullover is just what it says no buttons it goes over the head, kazaka and a jerkin are both sleeveless whereas the Greek garments we are translating have sleeves.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kags
  • 480

I hate to start with "Where I come from ..." but in Britain a sweater and a cardigan are most definitely NOT the same. Sweater, pullover and jumper are the same ... knitted, and you put it on over your head. A cardigan is knitted and buttons down the front.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

This was one of the most complex sentences we had to translate. And after much study and many changes and consultations with both AE and BE friends we've come to this conclusion. Not all things will be equal in all places, for example, the US a sweater is generic for a knitted top so it would include cardigan so it's not incorrect on a course which tries to cover as much native English as possible.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Atheia

I'm glad I read this thread, the inclusion of sweater (aka jumper in BE) made me think ζακέτα meant any woolen/knitted garment and not just those that button up the front, I shall continue to translate it as cardigan so as not to confuse myself further (I kinda wish 'cardi' was an acceptable translation to save mouse clicks though hehe).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

Good point ''cardi" is familiar enough to be included. Consider it done. Thanks.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Alice907595

A Sweater is a Jersey - not everyone is American


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

And we aware that not everyone is American and we make every effort to include every form we can and are informed of and for that reason so far we have for the word "sweater">[cardigan/jerkin/jacket/jumper/cardi] now with our thanks we will add "jersey". That's how Duo works. We're ready to help as much as we can but please don't be so harsh and sardonic.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TessRobert3

I'm confused about why isn't "coat" accepted. I don't understand why it needs to be specifically "short coat". Most coats are short coats in my experience living in Arizona, California, and New York, and certainly they are just called "coats". If I wanted to refer to a long coat, I might add an extra word to mark that category. Unless by "short coat" something like "midriff-baring" is meant. On the other hand, if "anorak" is acceptable then it doesn't really make sense to accept "jacket" but not coat.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Francesca-amalia

Α sweater is not a jacket/ζακέτα (at least in BR ENG a sweater is a pullover) and a jacket is not a thick padded coat, which a μπουφάν is. I'm half Greek, half English, fluent in both and have lived half my life in the UK and half in Greece. Have to say, I agree with Dora on this one.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16

Depending on where you are from there are various names for these. Here is what we have:

The [sweater/cardigan/jerkin/jacket/jumper/card/jersey/pullover] and the [jacket/short coat/parka/anorak/coat/pullover].

If you have any others to add just let us know.

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