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  5. "Η ζακέτα και το μπουφάν."

"Η ζακέτα και το μπουφάν."

Translation:The sweater and the jacket.

September 16, 2016

39 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KatharinaM882088

I have problems to understand the difference between this different garments. English is not my native language. I tried google image search. As I understood: ζακέτα is used for a knitted jacket, μπουφάν for a sportiv jacket. Then there is the greek word σακάκι, which is a more formal jacket. But maybe I am all wrong!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16
Mod
  • 225

Actually, you have described all these items very well. Yes, there is a problem because so many of the words resemble those in other languages but the items might be slightly different.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Mark958555

If "anorak" is correct for μπουφάν, then "coat" would be correct in American English, I would think. (I see an anorak as a very specific type of heavy coat, like an Eskimo would wear, and a totally different genus than a jacket…)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jeanprendiville

Mbylander, I laughed when I read your description, we had a prime minister popularly called " the anorak" because to prove his working class credentials he always wore a zipped up jacket!
Long live diversity!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16
Mod
  • 225

As you can see from the stream there are various views on names of clothing. You will also note that we made a serious effort to come to the most acceptable name for each item. In this case, we have used "short coat" for "μπουφάν" it is in the incubator as a correct translation. Hope that helps.

.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/cparticle

As Greek American. To me it seems like the poverty of American English usage in this area is causing sweater to be included with ζακέτα. The tendency of any English dialect to use sweater for both a pullover and cardigan doesn't make a correct translation. It seems inherently wrong that "The sweater and the jacket." Should be accepted as a correct answer for"Η ζακέτα και το μπουφάν". I think only adds confusion to a person learning the language. This seems like a situation where less is more. Including sweater with πουλόβερ and cardigan with ζακέτα this avoids a situation where jacket wouldn't be used with ζακέτα. This might upset some people because there usage of sweater isn't exactly represented but sometimes when learning a new language there is not a one to one mapping. As this lesson is about learning Greek and not about English it feels like the English should be trimmed to match the Greek.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16
Mod
  • 225

Surprisingly this skill has been one of the most difficult to create. Since so many words for clothes in Greek are loan words from other languages their meanings overlap. And since we tried to incorporate British English with the American we had a hard time coming up with definitions to suit all purposes.

As an American living in Greece for many years, I recognize that a "ζακέτα" is what we call a "sweater". It's a knit garment for the upper body with buttons or a zipper and is not a pullover. In a reply to another query on this subject, I specifically state that a "pullover" is "just that a knit garment without buttons that you pull over the head" (11 months ago). We do not accept "pullover or "pull over" as a correct translation for "ζακέτα". For that Greek has its own word "πουλόβερ". However, a recent search on google shows even "pullovers" as "sweaters" so we may have to rethink this.

In New York where I come from, a "sweater" is also called a "cardigan" so I accepted that as a translation for "ζακέτα".

I had questioned the use of "jacket" which sounds so much like "ζακέτα" because we also have "ζακάκη" in Greek to describe a "jacket" as for example in a suit but the google images for "ζακέτα" includes such items. So, if that is the Greek usage that is what we need to show. Our emphasis is on the learner understanding the Greek which is why we use so many English words to cover the meaning.

For further clarification please google "ζακέτα" and check out the images. These are what you'll find if you're shopping for such a garment. These are what we want the learners to recognize.

As for the use of American English which is the default language for Duo we are very careful to always use it as the primary definition for each word.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kags

Well, one silver lining: I've just worked out what to call an item of clothing that I bought in Corfu back in May. It's knitted, it's zipped and it has a hood. To my British English mind it's not a cardigan (knitted, but not usually zipped and/or hooded), it's not a hoody (usually fleecy or sweatshirt material) ... so obviously it must be a ζακέτα (particularly with Greek heritage!) and that will nicely avoid confusion with anything else I own!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16
Mod
  • 225

I'd say you nailed it. Seriously, do that google image search. Almost anything worn on the upper body gets called a ζακέτα these days. Oh, and μπλούζα that's pretty much a man for all seasons. Thanks for the input and με γεια (wear it in good health) as we say in Greece.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16
Mod
  • 225

Maybe you're not using Duolingo right. Have a look at these tips and you'll find things are much easier than you think.

These hints will show you how to always have the right translation. TIPS TO HELP YOU LEARN

1 Use the Drop-Down hints to help you translate. Pass your cursor over a word and a list of translations will appear.

~~Always use the top word/phrase. This will assure that you always have the right translation. It's the secret to success. Do not hesitate to use these as often as you need to.

2 Read the Tips & notes, on the first page of each lesson you’ll see TIPS. Click on that.

3 Always read the comments before posting. Check the heading on the page to see the sentence and its translation. Click on any blue words for more definitions.

4 If your translation is rejected you should carefully compare what you wrote with the answer given. If you do not see a mistake use the Report options at the foot of the exercise page to Report issues such as My answer should be accepted.

How to make a report.

We moderators cannot see your sentence therefore before you make a comment you should have made a REPORT. Then post on the comment page.

Here's how to REPORT.

Go to the bottom of the exercise page where you'll see "REPORT" Click on that:

Then choose what you want to REPORT:

-My answer should be accepted. This is the one you should click on if your translation was not accepted.

After choosing the REPORT you want to make you should post on the comment page.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/konix89

I put "The jacket and the coat" and it was counted as incorrect. From reading most of these comments it seems to me this should have been counted as correct. Just throwing it out there.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16
Mod
  • 225

We have put more research into this sentence than a scientific experiment. It seems around the world these words are used for various items of clothing. Here is what we have:

for ζακέτα - [sweater/cardigan/jerkin/jacket/jumper]

for μπουφάν- [jacket/short coat/parka/anorak].

Note that we have "short coat" If you check out the images for μπουφάν on the net you'll see why here.

I'll also add that on the new tree which we are preparing this sentence will be "hat and gloves" or some other easily recognized items. :) Sorry, for the confusion.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dora.18.09

Ζακέτα = Cardigan, thin jacket open in front from top to buttom (it doesn't matter if it closes with buttons or zipper)

Μπουφάν = thick winter sports jacket. Usually plastic but it can be made of cloth too. Closes with zipper, ideal for sports, winter, the mountains

Σακάκι = blazer.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16
Mod
  • 225

That might be so in your nitch of the world but in other places, these words are used differently. Thanks for your input.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dora.18.09

?? Lol I am Greek! I translated the words as they are understood universally in the country itself. A simple googling confirms what I say but you're not only ignorant but impolite too.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16
Mod
  • 225

So, disagreeing with you constitutes "ignorance"? And you call me impolite.

Yeah, I live in Greece too. But why would you use "blazer"? Σακάκι = jacket. Look it up and check the images. I've been working on this skill for 5 years and we keep getting contradictory descriptions. Many young people call all winter outerwear...Μπουφάν. I'm glad you're trying to help but it seems the namesof clothes are very mobile. Today's shirt is tomorrows "top" yes in Greece...τοπ...I saw it in store windows on Tsimiski.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dora.18.09

(Detailed explanation in 2nd part of this reply) I'm sorry but I happen to be native Greek and not just residing in Greece. Furthermore, I also happen to be bilingual in Greek and English (UK) and a certified translator. So its rather impolite to talk about my .. "nitch" of the world (I guess you meant niche but it's not used like that), to downvote and to call me wrong without checking online dictionaries at all. You left your comment within seconds of my reply.

Σακακι= blazer. There is NO other way to translate it. Any online dictionary would give Only that translation. A short walk at Zara would also prove my point.

Ζακετα is more complicated but in UK it's widely understood as cardigan. Calling it a jacket puts it in a more general category where it could be mistaken for μπουφάν.

Which brings us to the most difficult to explain. That's why I gave such a detailed description. Μπουφάν IS the quintessential winter jacket. It is thick and has padding while the cardigan hasn't or has very minimal.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16
Mod
  • 225
  1. Thanks for the niche...that was a big mistake.

  2. I didn't downvote until you called me ignorant. Did you call me ignorant for the spelling error or because I disagreed with your view of what each item of clothes is called on a course that reaches learners from around the world?

  3. I still disagree...in my parlance a "blazer" is a type of "jacket" and a "jacket" is what one wears with a suit so I feel "jacket" is a better translation as "blazer" is too specific. I've come to avoid expressions like....'no other way'. This world is huge, English is an international unit of expression and there are many more versions than we know that need to be treated with respect.

I think I have already mentioned that the team did a lot of research before setting up this skill. We contacted colleagues in the UK as well as the US, and later had input from other English speaking countries.

Yeah, I left a rapid comment because I"ve been fighting this battle...the one where I beg people to be open-minded to new ideas...for a long time. So, it may have been fast but that doesn't mean it was without forethought.

My experience, as I've mentioned, is that nowadays youngsters are calling all winter top garments μπουφάν. And even that might change over time. A "jacket" is more often known as a "σακάκι" I double-checked...here

I thank you again and would hate to lose your valuable input because of my heavy-handedness. That would be doing a disservice to the learners on this course. Feel free to share your ideas, it's through the input of the community that Duo gains s great deal of its alternative material.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dora.18.09

I just saw this and I cant reply directly under your last comment. A bit belated Ill give my answers below. - To your 2nd point: I was actually thinking of not continuing this since it was your very downvoting that led me to call you "ignorant" as it can be seen from my immediate reply. I'm surprised you say you downvoted me later over my reaction.

My perspective is this: - I have no interest or time for arguing. I'm a certified translator, bilingual (trilingual actually) in Greek and English and use this course as a learning technique to help me clear my mind and absorb other languages better (I'm doing multiple courses so this is my break) - When it comes to a blazer, the only synonym in Greek is "σακακι". This is how me and any other translator would translate it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blazer This is what any Greek understands as "σακακι" and only that: Semi formal or formal upper garment made of quality fabric, almost exclusively with buttons or (if casual) without, often part of a suit and worn eg. by grooms, politicians or semi formally in parties. Zara online catalogues and shops always refer to this sort of suit jackets as blazers and while in English it can be described in various ways, in Greek it's only ever called "σακακι". If a Greek asks for a "σακακι" he means that clothing item from the wikipedia Blazer article.

Anyway, thank You for your work here. I respect your patience in working here for seemingly quite a long time and actively helping. My only disappointment is over the above two issues. Ultimately though, in the grand scheme of things I feel that our energies are better concentrated elsewhere. This is a great course overall and I got my English best friend to try it. He's doing great!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PoetaPerduta

Don't comment when your hangry kids


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kags

Cardigan is also accepted ... which is what a knitted garment with buttons would be called in British English ... so you don’t necessarily need to change your vocabulary.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16
Mod
  • 225

Duolingo does teach American English however, it does not concentrate on that alone. We make every effort to include all versions of English.

We have done a great deal of research on this skill including consulting British friends for correct nomenclature. We then went on to continue adding new vocabulary to accommodate as many styles as possible. Here are the words accepted for this sentence. The [sweater/cardigan/jerkin/jacket/jumper/card/jerseyi] and the [jacket/short coat/parka/anorak]

As a native New Yorker I wouldn't know a "jerkin" if I fell over it,and a "jumper" for me is sleeveless dress worn with a blouse inside, "jersey" is a kind of fabric for underwear but we happily included them all here out of a wish to embrace fairness for all English speakers.

We make these efforts in all areas of the courses...from "sweets", to "pudding" (as a dessert) to "lifts", and "flats".

We always use "shall" for the first person simple present tense. We always include "colour", "honour", "flavour" etc. We have "bonnets" on our cars, we go to the "theatre" as well as the "theater", and include "programme" and "settee", and "sitting room", "drawing room" .

And of course, include..."mum" and "mummy" I could go on and on.

Did you use a word that was rejected? What was it? Perhaps we need to add it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PoetaPerduta

Keep doing what you're doing Jaye16; I honestly didn't read through this thread very well and I can see how many people have jumped down your throat about this. My input did come off as snarky without my wanting it to and I really do apologise! I tried jacket at first and it didn't go through but I'm sure the app was just having a moment - as we all do evidently, reading through the chaos in here. Please take no heed at the harsh comments, people forget sometimes that there are human faces behind these profiles and you're doing an impeccable job at being helpful and polite despite it all!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16
Mod
  • 225

Thanks so much for getting back to me. Yes, we are all volunteers here working, of course, under the guidance of the Duolingo system. Your apology is accepted and very much appreciated. We hope you go on to learn more and enjoy it too. If y ou have any questions, and indeed anything to add please don't hesitate. Help from the community is a big part of what we do.

Btw, if "jacket" wasn" accepted, which it should have been considering it's included in the database, there might have been an error. Please get into the habit ... if that should happen with any sentence...of using the REPORT option at the bottom of the exercise page.

Choose the "My sentence should be accepted." option that way we can see your sentence and make any corrections to the course necessary.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lfd
  • 695

Why not ‘The jacket and the jumper.’?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16
Mod
  • 225

The problem is in the definitions not only the dictionary but the colloquial and the British vs Amer. usage. I've just done a bit (a lot of) online searching and this is the simplest and clearest list I can give reflecting contemporary and international usage. Briefly:

  1. ζακέτα= sweater, jacket, cardigan
    2.μπουφάν = jacket, short coat, anorak, parka but not jumper because in BE it's knitted and without buttons and in AE a kind of dress.

All this will now be reflected in the drop down (hover) definitions. Of course, we don't want "The jacket and the jacket." So, "The sweater and the jacket." says it best. Hope this helps.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GeorgiosDC

So, a sweater can have buttons as well? Because a ζακέτα (always) has buttons (it's a cardigan as I think of it, I just don't know if cardigan is both UK and US English and if yes, if there's a difference between the two). Otherwise it's a πουλόβερ. Or a καζάκα (sweater vest, again with no buttons).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16
Mod
  • 225

What appeared at first to be a simple task turned out to be difficult considering the various terms for articles of clothing so using the net and a lot of images and I came up with many varieties. Then I emailed a British friend who gave good advice on what each item was called on that end and sent links to be viewed and, in the end, we decided this was the most general and authentic list. I won't be surprised if someone says: "Where I come from we ..." As I see it we've covered the two main English usages and are ok other items can be added if they fit.

A sweater and a cardigan are basically the same, a pullover is just what it says no buttons it goes over the head, kazaka and a jerkin are both sleeveless whereas the Greek garments we are translating have sleeves.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kags

I hate to start with "Where I come from ..." but in Britain a sweater and a cardigan are most definitely NOT the same. Sweater, pullover and jumper are the same ... knitted, and you put it on over your head. A cardigan is knitted and buttons down the front.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16
Mod
  • 225

This was one of the most complex sentences we had to translate. And after much study and many changes and consultations with both AE and BE friends we've come to this conclusion. Not all things will be equal in all places, for example, the US a sweater is generic for a knitted top so it would include cardigan so it's not incorrect on a course which tries to cover as much native English as possible.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Atheia

I'm glad I read this thread, the inclusion of sweater (aka jumper in BE) made me think ζακέτα meant any woolen/knitted garment and not just those that button up the front, I shall continue to translate it as cardigan so as not to confuse myself further (I kinda wish 'cardi' was an acceptable translation to save mouse clicks though hehe).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16
Mod
  • 225

Good point ''cardi" is familiar enough to be included. Consider it done. Thanks.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Alice907595

A Sweater is a Jersey - not everyone is American


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16
Mod
  • 225

And we aware that not everyone is American and we make every effort to include every form we can and are informed of and for that reason so far we have for the word "sweater">[cardigan/jerkin/jacket/jumper/cardi] now with our thanks we will add "jersey". That's how Duo works. We're ready to help as much as we can but please don't be so harsh and sardonic.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TessRobert3

I'm confused about why isn't "coat" accepted. I don't understand why it needs to be specifically "short coat". Most coats are short coats in my experience living in Arizona, California, and New York, and certainly they are just called "coats". If I wanted to refer to a long coat, I might add an extra word to mark that category. Unless by "short coat" something like "midriff-baring" is meant. On the other hand, if "anorak" is acceptable then it doesn't really make sense to accept "jacket" but not coat.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Francesca737420

Α sweater is not a jacket/ζακέτα (at least in BR ENG a sweater is a pullover) and a jacket is not a thick padded coat, which a μπουφάν is. I'm half Greek, half English, fluent in both and have lived half my life in the UK and half in Greece. Have to say, I agree with Dora on this one.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jaye16
Mod
  • 225

Depending on where you are from there are various names for these. Here is what we have:

The [sweater/cardigan/jerkin/jacket/jumper/card/jersey/pullover] and the [jacket/short coat/parka/anorak/coat/pullover].

If you have any others to add just let us know.

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