"Cymru ydy'r pencampwyr."

Translation:Wales are the champions.

October 8, 2016

12 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/quarter_moon

Why is the English translation in plural? "Wales is the champion." is not accepted. Might it be, the English word "Wales" is a plural form?

October 8, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/rmcode
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The context is not very clear here apologies, the point is that 'Wales' refers to a team in some event or other.

A clearer sentence would be 'The Welsh team are champions' = 'Tîm Cymru ydy'r pencampwyr'.

If it was a single person event, eg Tennis you would use the singular 'Andy Murray is the champion' = 'Andy Murray ydy'r pencampwr'

October 8, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/quarter_moon

Thanks for your reply. The meaning of the Welsh sentence is clear. I'm wondering about the English translation. The sentence "The Welsh team are the champions" still has the same strangeness as "Wales are the champions.": Subject in singular combined with predicate in plural. Although "Wales" and "team" are collective words - as far as I know - in English grammar should be constructed with a predicate in singular. So: "Wales is the champion."/"The Welsh team is the champion." Another construction, of course, would be "The members of the Welsh team are the champions.": Both in plural. Please correct me if there is a special grammatical rule for this case, I haven't met yet.

October 8, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/rmcode
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The plural form seems to the standard in both languages referring to team games as far as I can see:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cymrufyw/17800789

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_football_champions

October 8, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/quarter_moon

Obviously, that's how it is used. Thanks for the findings. For the English language I've found this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/learningenglish/grammar/learnit/learnitv358.shtml "Collective nouns refer to groups of people usually. Our choice of singular or plural verb form often depends on whether we are thinking of the group as an impersonal unit (in which case we use the singular verb - and relative pronoun which) or as a collection of individuals (in which case we use the plural verb form - and relative pronoun who). " Perhaps this applies to the Welsh language, too.

Still sounds strange to me, but "Wales are the champions." indeed seems grammatically correct, referring to the members of the team.

October 8, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/owenblacker

That's also a difference between British English and American English. As someone else pointed out, the Wikipedia article "Synesis" will explain some of that.

November 10, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/Doshia2

Since I listen to the BBC, I hear the use of the plural with sports teams all thee time. It sounds odd to the American ear, but is what is said in British.

November 17, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/shwmae

If you're interested in such phenomena you can read more about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesis

February 18, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/Kevin747595

Why can this not be "mae Cymru yn pencampwyr"? I am really struggling to understand why and when mae is sometimes used and sometimes it is not. For example, you use "mae'r cyfrifiadur yn fawr" rather than "y cyfrifiadur ydy fawr" so why is this not the same?

September 23, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/rmcode
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Normally as you have noted, sentences start with the verb in Welsh with the noun linked to the adjective or verb with 'yn' (remember the soft mutation of adjectives in this type of sentence)

Mae'r pannas yn fawr = The parsnips are big.

and

Mae'r pannas yn tyfu = The parsnips are growing.

Your suggested sentence (with the mutation) is perfectly fine

Mae Cymru yn bencampwyr = Wales are champions

However if we want to use the definite article, ie 'The champions' then we have to use the emphatic sentence format - subject - verb - object.

Cymru ydy'r pencampwyr

There is no way of using the normal sentence pattern with 'the champions'

For your other example it's the same thing.

Mae'r cyfrifiadur yn fawr = The computer is big.

Y cyfrifiadur ydy'r fwya = The computer is the biggest.

September 23, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/shwmae

However if we want to use the definite article, ie 'The champions' then we have to use the emphatic sentence format - subject - verb - object.

Cymru ydy'r pencampwyr

Just to be clear, there's no object here, but rather a subject/predicative complement.

September 25, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/Kevin747595

Diolch. Emphatic sentences have never been explained on here, although that may be coming up in a later lesson. I remember being very confused as to why it was y cyfandiroedd ydy mawr iawn (or something like that) rather than mae'r cyfandiroedd yn mawr iawn. Still scratching my head at all this but I think your explanation helps (a bit!)

September 23, 2017
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