Can someone explain the logic of this phrase a bit? Would make it easier for me to understand if I knew what 'personne d'entre' means.
personne = no one, nobody
d'entre nous = (lit) from among us
n' = ne as a complement of "personne" remember that negations often are in two parts: ne... pas, ne... plus, etc
So, "personne d'entre nous n'est parfait" = (lit) nobody among us is perfect.
Would it make grammatical sense to write it as; 'personne n'est parfait d'entre nous' ? Would it still carry the same meaning?
"personne d'entre nous" or "aucun(e) d'entre nous" have to remain together, like "none of us".
I beg to differ. I believe "personne d'entre nous" should stay together, but in English it is perfect to say with exactly this same meaning that "Nobody is perfect among us"....
- "personne n'est parfait parmi nous",
- "personne parmi nous n'est parfait",
- "personne d'entre nous n'est parfait",
- "aucun d'entre nous n'est parfait"
are correct and usual.
If you use "among", yes, that's right and in French as well:
- personne n'est parfait parmi nous = personne parmi nous n'est parfait.
But with "none of us" and "aucun d'entre nous", you can't split them.
Thanks Sitesurf, my simple question is this: IS it correct to translate “Personne d’entre nous n’est parfait” as “Nobody is perfect among us” or not? And if not, why exactly?
But without the ne, would it be "anyone among us is perfect"? In other words, is it more correct to think off personne as "anyone/anybody" and "personne ne" as no one/nobody?
Without "ne" it would simply be incorrect.
Someone or somebody is "quelqu'un".
Anyone or anybody is "n'importe qui".
Ah, that confused me. I thought "n'est" sounded like a double negative so omitted this, only to lose a heart :-( Thanks for the info.
Not really. As far as I know, the idiom is "nobody's perfect" in English and "nul n'est parfait" in French.
No, you would rather use "aucun de nous" (masc) or "aucune de nous" (fem). For whatever reason, with "personne" you have to use "d'entre".
Correct English here would be "None of us IS perfect" (None is a shortened form of 'not one' and the 'one' is singular). Alternatively, "Nobody's perfect".
It didn't accept "Nobody's perfect" for me, and corrected it as "Nobody is perfect." Any idea what the difference is?
I'd know what you meant, but since "Nobody's" could also be a possessive, Duolingo might have opted to treat it as such.
It disappears, because "personne" already contains a negative.
Note: it would be the same with "aucun / aucune"
I do believe a language learning site should be grammatically correct, even if some people do not say this correctly. At least the "starred" sentence should be correct. "None" is singular, so the sentence should be "none of us is perfect."
"None" is considered as singular (logic: if none, it means not one) "Personne" = "aucun" is also considered as a singular, for the same reason.
d' is elided (drop the vowel, replace it with an apostrophe) in front of a word starting with a vowel (entre).
it is preposition "de", equivalent to: none of us
But we already have "none among us" so it seems "none of among us" is redundant. Perhaps there is some other reason besides "of" for "d' " to be there?
Also, I am wondering why the adjective "parfait" modifying "personne" isn't "parfait", since "personne" is feminine?
d'entre as far as I can tell means of but literally is of among or of between. So the sentiment is clear: it means "of those among/between us".
Personne ne - Firstly no one is the subject of the phrase so Personne goes before ne. Secondly, Personne... ne is an invariable negative pronoun and does not change gender. It is a faux amis. So is it necessary to change parfait?
None of us is perfect is correct in english. None of us are perfect is bad english. Just saying..
For non-English speakers on this board:
None = not one
None = not any
When none is used as not one, it is followed by a singular verb: None of the lakes is suitable.
When none is used as not any, it is followed by a plural verb: None of the lakes are suitable.
Often there is no difference as is shown above. Where there is difference intended, use a singular or plural verb depending on the meaning of your sentence as none attracts both forms.
Since many English speakers see one contained in none, they think it means not one. People who hold this view, and they are many, think none + plural verb = bad. Use a plural verb with the understanding that many people (without good foundation) see it as bad grammar. This may affect how they see what you write and maybe even how they perceive you. In some circumstances such as applying for a job it is small comfort to know you are right and they are wrong.
People are still saying that none is singular because it means only not one, since that is how they use it.
Definition from Dictionary.com
none 1 [nuhn] Show IPA pronoun
1. no one; not one: None of the members is going.
2. not any, as of something indicated: None of the pie is left. That is none of your business.
3. no part; nothing: I'll have none of your backtalk!
4. ( used with a plural verb ) no or not any persons or things: I left three pies on the table and now there are none. None were left when I came.
As you can see from line 4, none attracts both singular and plural in English. It is not bad English to use plural verbs with none.
I agree completely. Can't believe you actually took the time to repeat that even more comprehensively :-)
My concern is that there are non English speakers are on this board. While native English speakers can choose to believe whatever they want about what is and what is not good English, I don't want people less sure to be led astray.
Since I posted my original comment another person made the comment (without any support offered) that using the plural form with none is incorrect.
Very interesting, northernguy. Just as complicated as French, at least to explain. And very helpful. (Yes, I am an English speaker.)
can 'est' really mean 'east'???? that's what the word said when i hovered over it as well as 'is'....that would be confusing.......
Yes, it does my friend. Obviously you must look to the context to decide if it sounds right or just plain ridiculous in the sentence you are translating.
The translation tips for this are very misleading. I know they are only tips. Personne = anybody, entre = bring [something] in I knew it wasn't right but still couldn't make sense of it,
I believe the correct English grammar would be 'None of us IS perfect." None is singular.
Technically none is nothing... Which is definitely not singular. But anyway, see here: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/none
As neverfox said, I think either is acceptable in certain contexts (My response above was a bit "tongue in cheek")
Both are deployed with enough spontaneous frequency to say that both are acceptable. Ronnie-JA's link is quite right in that regard.
"Personne" is normally feminine ("Cette personne est parfaite"). But here, functioning as part of the negative, it's apparently masculine. I'm clearly missing some quirk of grammar on why.
You are right: "une personne" (a person) is a feminine noun. In the negations "personne ne..." or "ne... personne", it becomes indefinite and, therefore, masculine by default.