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"Personne d'entre nous n'est parfait."

Translation:None of us is perfect.

February 10, 2013

53 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SuperBiasedMan

Can someone explain the logic of this phrase a bit? Would make it easier for me to understand if I knew what 'personne d'entre' means.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sitesurf

personne = no one, nobody

d'entre nous = (lit) from among us

n' = ne as a complement of "personne" remember that negations often are in two parts: ne... pas, ne... plus, etc

So, "personne d'entre nous n'est parfait" = (lit) nobody among us is perfect.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dcb1957

Would it make grammatical sense to write it as; 'personne n'est parfait d'entre nous' ? Would it still carry the same meaning?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sitesurf

"personne d'entre nous" or "aucun(e) d'entre nous" have to remain together, like "none of us".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/boringtomi

I beg to differ. I believe "personne d'entre nous" should stay together, but in English it is perfect to say with exactly this same meaning that "Nobody is perfect among us"....


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sitesurf

Yes,

  • "personne n'est parfait parmi nous",
  • "personne parmi nous n'est parfait",
  • "personne d'entre nous n'est parfait",
  • "aucun d'entre nous n'est parfait"

are correct and usual.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sitesurf

If you use "among", yes, that's right and in French as well:

  • personne n'est parfait parmi nous = personne parmi nous n'est parfait.

But with "none of us" and "aucun d'entre nous", you can't split them.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/boringtomi

Thanks Sitesurf, my simple question is this: IS it correct to translate “Personne d’entre nous n’est parfait” as “Nobody is perfect among us” or not? And if not, why exactly?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/neverfox

But without the ne, would it be "anyone among us is perfect"? In other words, is it more correct to think off personne as "anyone/anybody" and "personne ne" as no one/nobody?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sitesurf

Without "ne" it would simply be incorrect.

Someone or somebody is "quelqu'un".

Anyone or anybody is "n'importe qui".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ronnie-JA

Ah, that confused me. I thought "n'est" sounded like a double negative so omitted this, only to lose a heart :-( Thanks for the info.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FrenchAddict7

So this is basically an idiom?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sitesurf

Not really. As far as I know, the idiom is "nobody's perfect" in English and "nul n'est parfait" in French.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TheRealWei

Hi sitesurf, personne de nous is also applicable right?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sitesurf

No, you would rather use "aucun de nous" (masc) or "aucune de nous" (fem). For whatever reason, with "personne" you have to use "d'entre".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lucioarisci

in english you say nobody is perfect!!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/hornplyr

Is it just me, or does "d'entre" sound like "don't"? Lost a heart for no good reason there.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ejm_etherwork

it's not just you; I heard "don't" as well.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JemRan

Correct English here would be "None of us IS perfect" (None is a shortened form of 'not one' and the 'one' is singular). Alternatively, "Nobody's perfect".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/WaywardDaughter

It didn't accept "Nobody's perfect" for me, and corrected it as "Nobody is perfect." Any idea what the difference is?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/neverfox

I'd know what you meant, but since "Nobody's" could also be a possessive, Duolingo might have opted to treat it as such.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/WaywardDaughter

Ahh, that makes a bit of roundabout sense. Thanks!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AlejandroR666

What happened with the "ne...PAS" here?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sitesurf

It disappears, because "personne" already contains a negative.

Note: it would be the same with "aucun / aucune"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MichaelLe3139

"None of us" should be singular I believe.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jonathanbost

I do believe a language learning site should be grammatically correct, even if some people do not say this correctly. At least the "starred" sentence should be correct. "None" is singular, so the sentence should be "none of us is perfect."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sitesurf

"None" is considered as singular (logic: if none, it means not one) "Personne" = "aucun" is also considered as a singular, for the same reason.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/lavieenbleuclair

Can someone explain why the d' is there before entre?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sitesurf

d' is elided (drop the vowel, replace it with an apostrophe) in front of a word starting with a vowel (entre).

it is preposition "de", equivalent to: none of us


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/willijanb

But we already have "none among us" so it seems "none of among us" is redundant. Perhaps there is some other reason besides "of" for "d' " to be there?

Also, I am wondering why the adjective "parfait" modifying "personne" isn't "parfait", since "personne" is feminine?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ronnie-JA

d'entre as far as I can tell means of but literally is of among or of between. So the sentiment is clear: it means "of those among/between us".

Personne ne - Firstly no one is the subject of the phrase so Personne goes before ne. Secondly, Personne... ne is an invariable negative pronoun and does not change gender. It is a faux amis. So is it necessary to change parfait?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/efleeclc

None of us is perfect is correct in english. None of us are perfect is bad english. Just saying..


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/northernguy

For non-English speakers on this board:

None = not one

None = not any

When none is used as not one, it is followed by a singular verb: None of the lakes is suitable.

When none is used as not any, it is followed by a plural verb: None of the lakes are suitable.

Often there is no difference as is shown above. Where there is difference intended, use a singular or plural verb depending on the meaning of your sentence as none attracts both forms.

Since many English speakers see one contained in none, they think it means not one. People who hold this view, and they are many, think none + plural verb = bad. Use a plural verb with the understanding that many people (without good foundation) see it as bad grammar. This may affect how they see what you write and maybe even how they perceive you. In some circumstances such as applying for a job it is small comfort to know you are right and they are wrong.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/northernguy

People are still saying that none is singular because it means only not one, since that is how they use it.

Definition from Dictionary.com

none   1 [nuhn] Show IPA pronoun

1. no one; not one: None of the members is going.

2. not any, as of something indicated: None of the pie is left. That is none of your business.

3. no part; nothing: I'll have none of your backtalk!

4. ( used with a plural verb ) no or not any persons or things: I left three pies on the table and now there are none. None were left when I came.

As you can see from line 4, none attracts both singular and plural in English. It is not bad English to use plural verbs with none.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ronnie-JA

I agree completely. Can't believe you actually took the time to repeat that even more comprehensively :-)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/northernguy

My concern is that there are non English speakers are on this board. While native English speakers can choose to believe whatever they want about what is and what is not good English, I don't want people less sure to be led astray.

Since I posted my original comment another person made the comment (without any support offered) that using the plural form with none is incorrect.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/hannabeyler

a great guy! you win, nothernguy! I love you!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/willijanb

Very interesting, northernguy. Just as complicated as French, at least to explain. And very helpful. (Yes, I am an English speaker.)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ronnie-JA

Excellent explanation.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/T.A.R.D.I.S.girl

can 'est' really mean 'east'???? that's what the word said when i hovered over it as well as 'is'....that would be confusing.......


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ronnie-JA

Yes, it does my friend. Obviously you must look to the context to decide if it sounds right or just plain ridiculous in the sentence you are translating.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RobinHerrick

The translation tips for this are very misleading. I know they are only tips. Personne = anybody, entre = bring [something] in I knew it wasn't right but still couldn't make sense of it,


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vamagman

I believe the correct English grammar would be 'None of us IS perfect." None is singular.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ronnie-JA

Technically none is nothing... Which is definitely not singular. But anyway, see here: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/none


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sitesurf

How come nothing can be plural, then?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ronnie-JA

As neverfox said, I think either is acceptable in certain contexts (My response above was a bit "tongue in cheek")


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/neverfox

Both are deployed with enough spontaneous frequency to say that both are acceptable. Ronnie-JA's link is quite right in that regard.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Betsy134556

"Personne" is normally feminine ("Cette personne est parfaite"). But here, functioning as part of the negative, it's apparently masculine. I'm clearly missing some quirk of grammar on why.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sitesurf

You are right: "une personne" (a person) is a feminine noun. In the negations "personne ne..." or "ne... personne", it becomes indefinite and, therefore, masculine by default.

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