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"The ones that are standing in front of the new taxis are not old."

Translation:Azok nem régiek, amik az új taxik előtt állnak.

November 14, 2016

21 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/bnyugat

What if my understanding of 'the ones' is that they are human and not things...is this ok: Azok nem öregek, akik állnak az új taxik előtt. The human and the relative pronoun for whom instead of that/which...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Iva52893

I assumed that they were talking about people, since they were standing in front of the taxis, so I put in "akik" and got rejected. This ought to be fixed, you can't leave it ambiguous like this.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vvsey

If it were people, it would probably have said "the ones who".
Anyway, this is a terrible Hungarian sentence, I hope nobody learns it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JereArmen

I have done the same and, 10 months later, "azok ... akik" is still rejected.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kmargittai

Sigh! I used akik, since I assumed people.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Viviane882195

What is the difference between amik and amelyek?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vvsey

Please check out this discussion for some explanation:
https://www.duolingo.com/comment/17279272

In short, I would say that "ami" relates to "what", as in "the thing that". It kind of "includes" the implied subject that it describes. The noun is not mentioned in the clause that it refers to. With a simpler sentence:
What stands in front of the taxis is old - "Ami a taxik előtt áll, régi." Or: "Régi az, ami a taxik előtt áll."

"Amely", on the other hand, refers to a "named" noun or subject.
The bus that stands in front of the taxis is old. - "A busz, amely a taxik előtt áll, régi." Or: "Régi a(z a) busz, amely a taxik előtt áll."

In the sentences above, I see a mismatch in the translation.

"The ones that are standing in front of the new taxis are not old."
The subject is not unnamed, it is probably known in the context. For example:
"Let's talk about the buses. The ones that are .... ". I would definitely use "amelyek" here.
"Azok, amelyek az új taxik előtt állnak, nem régiek."

And now, without a named subject:
"Let us talk about what is standing in front of the new taxis."
"Beszéljünk arról, ami az új taxik előtt áll."

Unfortunately, the English sentence does not easily lend itself to the use of "what". Or does it? I don't know:

"What are standing in front of the new taxis are not old." - sounds a bit weird.
"Azok nem régiek, amik az új taxik előtt állnak."
Or: "Amik az új taxik előtt állnak, nem régiek."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GregWood15

My Hungarian son-in-law begs to differ.

He maintains that "ami' is equivalent to the English "that", while "amelyik" is equivalent to the English "which" and this equivalence is so true that, just as the English speakers are rarely heard to choose the correct word, so, too, are the Hungarian speakers.

In a nut shell, "ami" and "that" are used when the descriptive clause is used to identify the object and "amelyik" and "which" are used when the descriptive clause is merely providing some additional information that doesn't, necessarily, identify the object.

Example: I have three cats, one is white and the other two black. One got into a fight with a dog. A: The cat that/ami is white escaped by climbing a tree. B: The cat, which/amelyik just-happens-to-be/is black, escaped by climbing a tree.

I needed to think a bit before constructing the above example, because I wanted to create a scenario where the only grammatical difference is the use of "that/ami" versus "which/amelyik". Most often, a noun with an indefinite article, will not be described by a "that/ami" clause, as the indefinite article implies that we have no intention of identifying it. In the English, the commas must appear as shown in the example, but I don't know whether there is an official Hungarian recommendation on the use of commas in these situations.

On the downside, I'm afraid there is no advice that will be consistent with Mr. D.'s translations.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/vvsey

Yeah, I have to agree that not all Hungarians speak "correct" Hungarian. :P
Which is, I am sure, true for all languages. After all, that is what makes languages change/evolve.
The advantage of "ami" over all others is that it is much shorter. So it squeezes out the proper usage everywhere, like an invasive species.
But let me just ask one question:
"Melyik macskáról beszélünk?" - Which cat are we talking about?
Clearly, I want to identify the darn cat. And I am using "melyik" as the question word.
And the "proper" pair for that "melyik" is? If you ask me: "amelyik".
"Amelyik" = "az"+"melyik" = " that which".
Q: "Melyik macska?" - Which cat?
A: "Amelyik fehér." - The one that is white. Or: that which is white.

For more details, just read my previous comments, I maintain that they are correct. "Amelyik" is clearly an identifying pronoun(?), and "ami" is mostly "what" but is taking over the roles of others, due to being short and people being lazy. And then there is "amely", a non-identifying one, but it is not common in speech, more in writing.
Using "amelyik" in a non-identifying role is, however, clearly "wrong" - if we can call anything wrong in a language.

Further complicating things is that Hungarian also uses a pointer, an anchor, when identifying something.

I have only one cat, and it is white:
"A macska, amely/ami fehér, a szőnyegen alszik." - The cat, which is white, is sleeping on the carpet.

I have several cats, which one is sleeping on the carpet?
"AZ a macska alszik a szőnyegen, AMELYIK(lazily: ami) fehér."
That "az" is an important part of the identification. It is an anchor, a place-holder, for the second clause. Without it, the identification usually does not work.
You can obviously see how complex and confusing this whole topic is, no wonder people are mixing things up. And once you learned something from your parents and school as normal, it becomes correct and normal for you. There are countless examples for that in English, as well (me vs I, lay vs lie, went vs gone, etc etc).

Here is an excellent article - in Hungarian - about "ami", "amely" and "amelyik", I try to keep in agreement with it (obviously I don't always succeed myself...).
http://nyelvmuveles.hu/magyarosan/ami-amely-es-tarsaik


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AndrewTiho1

Im going crazy... my native is Russian... no problem with Hungarian but if to compare translation bw HU-EN / HU-RU and vice versa its a mess....!!!!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SandrellaS1

My experience too! With Serbian, though!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FrankLendv

Are people or objects standing in front of the taxis. If it is people you would call them oregek not regiek and it is usually people who stand by taxis


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jzsuzsi
Mod
  • 806

Objects. Two clues here: "régiek" and "amik" (if it were people, akik would be better)

So The things that are standing in front of the new taxis... they can be parking meters, or buildings, or street signs.... Actually, in Hungarian, a lot of things áll, even if stand is weird for the English translation. Az épület ott áll. Az autó az utcán áll.

To create a version with people: "The people that are standing in front of the new taxis are not old." Azok nem öregek, akik az új taxik előtt állnak.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PaulSuich

Exactly, that is why I submitted, Azok nem idős akik az új taxik előtt állnak. Still rejected because they are assuming objects, not people. But I should have used idősök...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AlexusD90

You give very difficult sentences for newers. It's a wrong aproach.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/cosmo-pedant

Personally, I like to stretch my brain to the limit sometimes. The previewing of future cogitations also serves as guide. Of course, we all need resources that we can use practically. Sok sikert!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LadyInque

I didn't know if they were talking about things or people, so I said idõs instead of régi. Foot!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/orG8iU

Can we say "Azok nincsennek régiek.....?"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GregWood15

"Nincsenek" is "nem vannak" and the Hungarians do not use "vannak" when describing third person objects. The will use "vannak" when saying where something is or when it will happen, but not to say what it is or when assigning it an adjective.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jack298350

What creatures are standing in front of the taxis,scary


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/GregWood15

They might be creatures, or they might be other taxis. You scare easily :)

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