"Ne krokodilu!"
Translation:Do not speak your native language when Esperanto is more appropriate!
63 CommentsThis discussion is locked.
"Don't crocodile!" also works. But it wouldn't be very useful if Duolingo listed that as the translation.
The explanation I heard back in the 90s is that early Esperanto teachers would use puppet shows, and the crocodile puppet would speak the native language instead of Esperanto. So, "ne krokodilu" basically means "don't be like the crocodile puppet."
Let me see if I can find the reference. I'll have to dig out my Esperanto books from back then, including the biography of Lidia Zamenhof that I have. I think it might have been in there, because she was a HUGE teacher of Esperanto, as you might imagine.
Neniu scias ekzakte. Kelkaj eblaj klarigoj de Vikipedo - https://eo.wikipedi0.org/wiki/Krokodili#Etimologio
Just realized "Don't crocodile!" is accepted. I've been typing in the whole "Do not speak your native language..." spiel every time there's been a question like this. I feel like a sucker. :P
The more natural way to say this in English would be: ‘Speak Esperanto!’
This is not accepted, though. :/
43
There also are "ne aligatoru!" and "ne lacertu!" and they are all different. So "speak Esperanto" is not the exact translation.
I have not come across "ne aligatoru!" or "ne lacertuloj!" (Did you mean "ne lacertulu!" by the way?) What do they mean? PIV doesn't include them.
I have a hard time keeping the other ones straight. Aligatori and kajmani have to do with speaking national languages that are not your native language. I forget which is which but it has to do with whether one or both speakers is native.
Lacerti has two meanings - not really related. One has to do with speaking another planned language at an Esperanto event. If I had to guess, the second meaning has to do with speaking languages which you sort of understand because the languages are similar.
- 43
Salivanto is right, it should be "ne lacertu". There are even more "reptiliumi" words: https://eo.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptiliumi
I didn't say so explicitly, but I intended to agree with DavidLamb3 that I have not heard ne lacertu or ne aligatoru either - not in two decades of activity. Mostly these words are not used except to win trivia contests. It's possible that aligatori has found a new life in the word aligatorejo, but otherwise these are pretty rare. Certainly people don't run around telling other people not to do them. If they're used, they're used positively.
The one specimen that I recall "in the wild" was in an entry in Pasporta Servo many years ago. This was when it was in book form and space was limited. The description read, in part:
- La edzino kajmanas germane.
The translation, in context, would be something like:
- I am the only one in the house who speaks Esperanto, but my wife (in addition to being a native speaker of the local language) is a non-native speaker of German and would be willing to speak both languages with you.
There is a subtle mistake in the definition of krokodili at the top of this page (as of April 2020 as I write this.) A key element in krokodili is speaking nacilingve when it would be appropriate to speak Esperanto. It's not limited to your native language In fact, really speaking any language when you should be speaking Esperanto is krokodili.
By the way, the short and simple translation of Ne krokodilu! is:
Ne krokodilu!
- Speak Esperanto!
As for whether it's true that the beginner may crocodile:
La komencanto rajtas krokodili.
Nu... li rajtas krokodili. Tio ne signifas ke li efektive krokodilas.
Where does this expression come from?
Nobody knows for sure. A plausible explanation is that someone once saw people who come to an Esperanto event to "not speak Esperanto" and compared them to a cold-blooded reptile with few redeeming social graces, and the comparison stuck.
Another theory has to do with the rubber animals used in the old "Cseh method" classes.
Students of Andreo Cseh. When Cseh taught Esperanto, students were only allowed to speak their native language when they were holding a wooden crocodile he always brought with him.
Do people really use the word krokodili?
Yes, all the time.
What about other similar expressions like aligatori, kajmani and so on?
No, they're not used nearly as widely, but being able to recite all the different kinds may make you popular at parties.
I have a hard time keeping the other ones straight. Aligatori and kajmani have to do with speaking national languages that are not your native language. I forget which is which but it has to do with whether one or both speakers is native.
Lacerti has two meanings - not really related. One has to do with speaking another planned language at an Esperanto event. If I had to guess, the second meaning has to do with speaking languages which you sort of understand because the languages are similar.
I have not heard ne lacertu or ne aligatoru either - not in two decades of activity. Mostly these words are not used except to win trivia contests. It's possible that aligatori has found a new life in the word aligatorejo, but otherwise these are pretty rare. Certainly people don't run around telling other people not to do them. If they're used, they're used positively.
The one specimen that I recall "in the wild" was in an entry in Pasporta Servo many years ago. This was when it was in book form and space was limited. The description read, in part:
- La edzino kajmanas germane.
The translation, in context, would be something like:
- I am the only one in the house who speaks Esperanto, but my wife (in addition to being a native speaker of the local language) is a non-native speaker of German and would be willing to speak both languages with you.
Wait, could you say that all again?
Sure. Krokodili is defined as speaking nacilingve when Esperanto would be more appropriate. It doesn't matter if it's your native language. If someone is speaking non-native Spanish when they should be speaking Esperanto -- that absolutely would be described as krokodili.
Now, some people over the years has come up with different subsets of krokodili (often generalized to reptilumi - another unnecessary word), but being able to recite the distinctions is more of a party trick than anything else. In practice, nobody slices it so thin - and in practice, the only one you need to know is krokodili.
By the way, the meanings have been sliced so thin that there are even more meanings than reptiles to assign to them (e.g. lacerti has two unrelated meaning.)
Personally, in my own usage, I only ever say krokodili and occasionally kajmani. I wouldn't be able to recall what aligatori means, except for the occasional tradition of the aligatorejo - and while I've read the distinction between kajmani and aligatori, I don't think it's important enough to worry about.
I really never say aligatori but I do say kajmani. The difference between the two is that with aligatori there's at least one native speaker speaking or listening in.
What about aligatorejo?
I do think aligatorejo is a useful term - since it implies a place where you can "bend the rules" and find a native speaker to practice with, but aligatori as its own verb isn't really useful -- it just means krokodili.
By the way, the reason I say kajmani is that it clearly indicates that the speaker is not a native speaker, as explained in my example above.
I went through this exercise over and over before finally getting the wording just right enough to be accepted. "Would be more appropriate" feels more natural than "is more appropriate".
Yeah, I had a lot of issues trying to word this one just right, too.
By the way, are you using the "Report a problem" button to report things like these, though? I'm not sure how quickly the course creators would get to issues reported in the forums --if they check them at all! :-)
Yeah I did that as well. Since the Esperanto culture section has so many esoteric concepts, I wanted to discuss them on the forum as well to see if my suggestions are as accurate as I think they are.
I certainly agree with you: in fact, I believe I, too, submitted a report precisely suggesting "would be more appropriate," ha ha. Great minds think alike, hopefully? ;-)
- 2499
I reported this too and got this e-mail back in March:
"You suggested “Do not speak your native language when Esperanto would be more appropriate.” as a translation for “Ne krokodilu!” We now accept this translation. :)"
However, now the above answer seems to have been removed as an accepted translation :/
"The beginner is allowed to speak his native language when Esperanto would be more appropriate." is still accepted as an answer for "La komencanto rajtas krokodili." though.
- 181
"Do not speak your native language when Esperanto would be more appropriate" is now accepted again :)
In English, this is quite an ironic statement, because do not speak your... Is so inefficient as apposed to ne krokudilu.
- 316
I have put only half of the sentence "Do not speak your native language." - but it was accepted. So that other part of sentence "when Esperanto is more appropriate" - is it not necessary, or is it understood even if you don't say it?
This is an unnecessarily lengthy translation anyway, nobody's going to hear 'Ne krokodilu' and think 'Oh, that means "Do not speak your native language when Esperanto is more appropriate"'. They're just going to understand it as 'Ne krokodilu' as is or as 'Don't crocodile', so it doesn't really matter how you translate it as long as you have the idea in Esperanto-culture down.
When you really understand a language, you don't translate in your head. You just understand.
Wouldn't "Do not speak your native language when Esperanto is more appropriate!" be "Ne parolu vian gepatran lingvon kiam Esperanto estas pli taŭga!"?
Vi nur anstatauxigu "gepatran" per "denaskan" kaj jes, estus la lauxvorta signifo.
I would say "denaska lingvo" and "gepatra lingvo" are basically interchangeable - but note that the actual definition of krokodili has to do with speaking nacilingve - and is not limited to one's native or mother tongue.
the actual definition of krokodili
I thought you were more of a descriptivist than that :)
I meant "the actual meaning... as used by actual speakers, and as documented in PIV."
- 863
Does it have to be your native language to be considered crocodiling? I find that when I can't say something in Esperanto, I tend to switch to my non-native Spanish.
Does it have to be your native language to be considered crocodiling?
In general, yes.
I find that when I can't say something in Esperanto, I tend to switch to my non-native Spanish.
That's aligatori.
I see it differently. Krokodili is defined as speaking nacilingve when Esperanto would be more appropriate. It doesn't matter if it's your native language. If someone is speaking non-native Spanish when they should be speaking Esperanto -- that absolutely would be described as krokodili.
Now, some people over the years has come up with different subsets of krokodili (often generalized to reptilumi - another unnecessary word), but being able to recite the distinctions is more of a party trick than anything else. In practice, nobody slices it so thin - and in practice, the only one you need to know is krokodili.
By the way, the meanings have been sliced so thin that there are even more meanings than reptiles to assign to them (e.g. lacerti has two unrelated meaning.)
Personally, in my own usage, I only ever say krokodili and occasionally kajmani. I wouldn't be able to recall what aligatori means, except for the occasional tradition of the aligatorejo - and while I've read the distinction between kajmani and aligatori, I don't think it's important enough to worry about.
P.S. To anybody who cares to reply to this message and explain the details of meaning that I've left out, I want to be clear that I left them out on purpose because I don't think they're important.
I'm very much interested in the different forms of reptilumi. Sure, it's only a party trick, but I think it's fun. Do you know of an English list?
There is no one definitive list; as salivanto said, different people disagree on how many verbs there are and what exactly they mean.
That said, https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krokodili has two lists (in Esperanto).
Thank you. That is very interesting. If I understand this correctly the words depend less on the intention of the speaker than I thought.
I don't think so. In my understanding aligatori means to speak another language for the sake of speaking that other foreign language you speak. To improve your Chinese with some native Mandarin speakers at an Esperanto gathering for example.
I don't know if there is a special word for ‘speaking a language other than Esperanto or your own for the sake of making yourself understood’.
Later you said:
If I understand this correctly the words depend less on the intention of the speaker than I thought.
I think your later analysis is correct. Intention doesn't really factor in. I see I've written a bit about this topic in this thread and in another and I want to see if I can compile everything into one coherent comment, but briefly, I really never say aligatori but I do say kajmani. The difference between the two is that with aligatori there's at least one native speaker speaking or listening in.
I do think aligatorejo is a useful term - since it implies a place where you can "bend the rules" and find a native speaker to practice with, but aligatori as its own verb isn't really useful -- it just means krokodili.
By the way, the reason I say kajmani is that it clearly indicates that the speaker is not a native speaker. I'll include a specific example in my main post.
Where did this word come from?
Nobody knows for sure.
One explanation is that it's from Andreo Cseh's method of teaching Esperanto in the early day using rubber animals as props. One of the props, the story goes, was a krokodilo that he would pick up when he wanted to speak a national language.
Another is that people came to an Esperanto meeting wanting to speak Esperanto and saw the people who didn't know that they're supposed to be speaking Esperanto at an Esperanto event as somehow similar to cold-blooded reptiles with few social graces.
Reposting the two thoughts above because I accidentally deleted some of my comments and these thoughts (from me and others) along with it. Apologies.
There doesn't seem one correct way in English of translating this Esperanto idiom. It seems pot luck whether an answer is accepted.
In English the terms "native language" & "native tongue" are equivalent, but not recognized by the checking algorithm. Annoying.
Unfortunately there is no "checking algorithm": just translations entered by hand. If you think a correct translation is missing, you should use the "Report a problem" button to suggest it.
I agree, but it is not possible to suggest alternatives now using the report button. The only thing you can do is to tick the "My answer should be accepted" box.
As far as I know, that IS the way to propose alternative answers, so yes, please do that.
But what if you're talking to one of your party and you or they are not fluent in Esperanto yet? :,) Will people take offense to something like that if you're obviously struggling and doing your best?
Two thoughts:
- "krokodili" is generally explained as speaking another language where Esperanto would be more appropriate. If there is a situation where another language really is more appropriate, then by definition it's not krokodili.
- I notice you used the word "yet". For my part, if I've gone to great personal effort an expense to be at an event to speak Esperanto, I'll be very happy to talk to beginners in Esperanto. Komencantoj estas bonvenaj - krokodiloj ne.