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I'm surprised by the inclusion of "Ποτέ", and would have expected "I have never followed you", to translate as "Δεν σε ἐχω ακολουθήσει". I guess I have to look through the lessons for where ποτέ was introduced.
I think "ποτέ" is introduced in Adverbs,you could check if you'd like. Also, ""Δεν σε ἐχω ακολουθήσει" would translate to "I haven't followed you." ^.^
I'm really confused by this construction and my wife wasn't able to explain it correctly beyond, "that is how it is said". My question is, "Since ποτέ means never, is 'ποτέ δεν' the construction (taken together) or have I missed the boat entirely."
I understand how the regular examples are put together but this seems like it is saying, "never have i not followed you". I think that perhaps I'm just tripping over the δεν as a negation to the verb phrase.
Any help in clarifying this would be super.
If I understand correctly, you're wondering why ποτέ and δεν are in the same sentence, because in English, never is never used (the irony :P) in negation. (because never is considered to be negative, so anything else indicating negation would be redundant.)
Well, in Greek, it's just the exact opposite. Ποτέ is used in negation.
-I have never gone to Paris - Δεν έχω πάει ποτέ στο Παρίσι.
-I will never leave you - Δεν θα σε αφήσω ποτέ.
-We would never believe such a thing - Δεν θα πιστεύαμε ποτέ τέτοιο πράγμα.
(Also, structure here is a bit loose. For example, you could also say Ποτέ δεν θα σε αφήσω, Ποτέ δεν έχω πάει στο Παρίσι, etc)
It can also be used in questions, with the meaning of ever, in cases like
-Have you ever gone to Paris?- Έχεις πάει ποτέ στο Παρίσι;
-Will you ever find a job? - Θα βρεις ποτέ δουλειά;
Long story short, two uses for ποτέ. Never in negation, ever in questions. And, the structure is less strict.^.^
I hope this was helpful! ^.^
(If I misunderstood the question, feel free to let me know. :P)
Actually, I think that was very helpful. I still read it in both as "ever" though, because of the use of "δεν".
-We would never believe such a thing - Δεν θα πιστεύαμε ποτέ τέτοιο πράγμα
I can't help but see it as "We would not believe ever." Not ever is pretty much "never". I think the fact that "ποτέ" started the sentence blew some English speaking circuits and I couldn't follow it.
Thank you for your explanations. This is one of the types of sentences that will help me sound less like an Ooog. I do appreciate it.
You're welcome. Don't worry. You will do just fine :)
(Of course, you can view ποτέ as ever in that sentence. As in "We wouldn't ever believe such a thing/We wouldn't believe such a thing, ever". I do advise you though, that you translate ποτέ as never in negation more often, in order not to get confused. ^.^)
What I mean is that when you say it is never, I would think I didn't need the δεν. Without the δεν it is we would do. So if ποτέ is never I would (think) I could just say, θα πιστεύαμε ποτέ I'd be wrong, but it is just one of those constructs that doesn't have a one to one relationship. What it really shows is the difference between "not" and "never" and how they work in Greek.
I think the issue that is being discussed here is what we call a "double negative" in English, which is a common gramatical error. "I don't ever go nowhere" instead of "I don't ever go anywhere", when the person meant to say they don't go out. Thechnically, the double negative turns it back into a positive. But in prior lessons I seem to recall it was said that double negatives are not incorrect in Greek and do not switch the meaning back to positive.
And in English they are called ..." non-standard" it's not really a rule. As for turning them back to a positive, that seems to be something our teachers added to drill it into us...but if I say..."I ain't never going there." that's a double negative but I'm still "not going there". We don't use a double negative in proper English but as Troll states below, it's the only way to do it in Greek.
Yes, thinking of ποτέ as "ever" may work well -- it's "never" only in a negative sentence.
A bit like "anything" in English -- if you say "He didn't give me anything I needed", you ended up with nothing, while if you say, "He gave me anything I needed", you ended up with stuff. The "anything" on its own doesn't mean "nothing"; only in combination with a negator.
I'm not sure whether ποτέ is used in positive statements but it is used in positive questions with a meaning of "ever": Έχεις ποτέ (σου) πιει οινόπνευμα; "Have you ever drunk alcohol?"
"Anything" seems like a really good analog. It is hard sometimes to de-couple the languages and let them stand on their own.
I was aware of how "ποτέ" is used in questions since the DuoDictionary gives both as examples: {"ποτέ":["never", "ever (in questions)"]}
These discussions so tightly bound to the actual translation questions and those of you that answer the questions really does make things easier to understand. I really do appreciate it.
The only example of a positive statement I could come up with was, Ποτέ την Κυριακή, and I'm not sure that just because it is a title it is different. I suppose the same would apply to any day or time frame, like "never at night" etc.
Never I have followed you - is not accepted?!? (it said: "never have I followed you" instead...
Yes, Never have I followed you sounds good to me (if a little poetical) and Never I have followed you sounds wrong to me. The neutral version is I have never followed you.
That's usually a negative or restrictive word. As here "never", but it can also be something like this: "Seldom do we eat fried ice cream." "Only then did he realize the danger." etc.
Would I lie to you? Seriously, I was taken aback when I ran across it but well...have a look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSG49NG66i0
