There is a serious lack of people doing Immersion
I try to do Immersion regularly (approaching level 2 now, finally) and one thing I'm noticing are many documents with only the headline translated. There are also almost never upvoted documents (although bad ones do get downvoted rapidly) and I've seen documents linger in a non-finished stage for over a month now.
People! TRANSLATE! It's a great way to immerse yourself into the language and now that they changed the system you don't even need to be that afraid of downvotes. Plus it's a great way to gain XP quickly, if you need a motivation. And finally, it's what keeps duolingo ad- and payment free!
This is more of a Duolingo problem rather than a user problem. Somehow someway, Duolingo needs to find a way to make immersion more attractive and interesting. The tier levels, and other bells and whistles are apparently not sufficient.
I for one like the immersion, but I don't actually use it because I use Duo on my phone, in gaps at work, or in otherwise lost time, and I vaguely remember that around two thirds of people do the same and use the mobile app exclusively. It's such a handy thing that it is its own worst enemy, hah.
I don't know how to incorporate immersion onto the app without causing everything to be translated into txtspk though, that might be a difficult one to solve..
Not thinking about this for 15 minutes also gave me another idea; You have to specifically come to Duolingo's site to read immersion articles, but I generally just float around the internet and read whatever I find. It would be better if there was some sort of external initiative, some way that website owners could link their own articles to Duolingo's system. Everything is loaded with pointless facebook and twitter icons, what if there was a standard 'share on Duolingo' button? It would naturally encourage people to submit and work on interesting articles even when they are 'away' from the main site.
That's my consultation done for the day, get on it team :)
Yes, if Duolingo becomes as popular as what I like to call fakebook (facebook),, then I presume that this would in fact happen.
I think your maths is accurate, if only 25% of the user base has access to Immersion, and there are only roughly 8 million active users, that means that only 2 million users are actually active on the web. So that's roughly 10% of potential users of immersion, then if we divide those by popular languages, we can surmise that most likely most of them are doing Spanish. Leaving fewer users to tackle the less popular languages.
Anyway, your plan would first require for Duolingo to be popular enough for them to add such things, and it would require Duolingo to actually develop an API. Something that, as they've indicated several times, they aren't doing planning or creating currently.
As for txtspk, that isn't a big problem, autocomplete has existed for years. The real issue is getting that text into those small screens, and making it userfriendly and interesting enough that they will keep coming back.
Sure. These last days, you get redirected to “immersion” after completing a lesson, which is a good thing.
Maybe something that can be easily fixed is to make the tier levels more visible. In the current interface, I have to look for them to find them: if they would be clearly visible (for instance, somewhere on the top of the Duolingo webpage), maybe more people would try to make them increase?
Yea, that's so right, and they need to allow people who aren't Spanish users to do it, because I can't but my sister can and I have Spanish but she's on a much higher level! And they do need to make it more attractive!
In my case, I'm learning Portuguese (my 3 language) from English (my 2 lenguage) and it is quite difficult to write the correct translation. All paragraphs I have written were corrected, and it not because I didn't understand portuguese if not for mistakes in my english. I will translate when I write in my native language. But I agree with you, this is a great way to improve our language.
Yeah, I get corrected for mistakes in my English a lot too. But often the mistakes are minor so people don't downvote, so it's fine.
I almost never down-vote. I think that should be reserved for situations where somebody insists on a clearly faulty translation.
Look closely at the translated lines. You can up and down vote for translations too.
English is my second language too and I have simmilar problem. I just try to look for sentences easy for me both in Pt and Eng. Other thing is I use Duolingo most often when I commute, in the app, and translating is not available then.
Translate, but also vote on other people's translations! I have translated a ton but I hardly get any votes or edits on my translations. I really wish we had a more active Portuguese learning community here...
Perhaps those of us that do work on the translations should somehow "band together" to try and check each others translations? If we each friended a couple of other Portuguese learners, we could try and make an effort to at least vote on or edit their work.
The way to band together is by Following each other, and then clicking "Activity" to see which articles were recently translated by your peers. That way, your upvotes and feedback can be consistently helping the same people enough for them to move forward, rather than being haphazard and not really helping anybody enough to do any good.
@marcoiris1: link me to an article you'd like reviewed and I'll try to pitch in. ;) Literature and Arts are my favorites, if you have any...
I think most people prefer doing the trees before doing immersion. Maybe the thing keeping people from doing immersion is the fact that you can't keep track of what you learn in immersion, so everything you do seems worthless unless you have a very gifted memory.
Interesting theory. I highly doubt most web-users finish their trees without using immersion. The reason being that people will be curious to see why Duolingo keeps popping those prompts, and just how the whole thing works. Although I'm not sure if most users ever translate anything, I presume they may perhaps just proofread, and continue doing their work.
Anyway, I believe you're on to something. The issue here is that immersion and lessons are two separate aspects of the Duolingo experience. One can complete the whole course without visiting immersion even once. You can't keep track of any stats concerning immersion, aside from tier points.
What I would do in Duolingo shoes, is create some sort of optional challenge, that is tied to the language tree, and also to immersion. Something that would get people to use it more. Alternatively, I'd attempt to devise a system that keeps immersion closely tied to the language tree. But as pointed out by chivlence, most users would still not profit from these improvements because they are unable to use Duolingo on their mobile devices.
Maybe they could build in blockades where you can only progress if you either pay a high amount of lingots or reach the next level in immersion?
Reaching the next level in immersion is dependent on the other users. So I don't think that is a reasonable plan, since your progression would be hampered if you're having bad luck with the editors/voters.
A high amount of lingots on the other hand would not have any effect on immersion since you can obtain those by just doing lessons. Also immersion itself doesn't award any lingots, unless you upload interesting articles that people upvote.
Yeah, maybe it wasn't the greatest idea. But let me improve it.
Let's say they split the tree in three parts: Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced. When you first start, you will be informed about this. Advancing to the next stage has certain requirements:
1) Complete the previous tree
2) Pay X lingots
The amount of lingots you need to pay would lower the more you translate and rate in the immersion section. You would be told this at the beginning. Let's say, if you never translated anything, you'd have to pay 1000 Lingots. But even gaining a single XP would reduce this to 500 (meaning people WILL try immersion out at least). 50 XP gained could recuce this to 400, 100 XP to 300 and so on until it's free. Gaining XP in immersion is easy and people need to realize this, then they'll happily do a lot of it.
Good idea. It would be great to have a larger text to translate (from immersion) at each checkpoint. And like you said, you should also be able to pay your way past with lingots if you don't want to partake. Perhaps also the ability to elect a favourite topic in user settings, so the translation points are interesting to the individual user. I'd also like to see immersion added to the mobile app, as this is where I use Duolingo most of the time. Perhaps they could break up the immersion text into slightly smaller chunks for this?
In my case I have to be pretty frank, my only reason to learn languages is to talk and understand people in everyday situations. Unless they all suddenly start talking about politics, global warming and so on, I will focus mainly in basic stuff like asking for a cup of coffee, saying the weather is good/bad, or saying I like this or not, etc.
Yeah, the Portuguese immersion gets pretty dead. I translated a whole article and got no feedback whatsoever. If I did that in French, I'd get plenty of feedback even if I only translate small portions. It's kind of demotivating, since I have less skill in Portuguese and I want to see if my translations are good.
I think part of the problem is that by default, it only shows articles that still need to be translated, not articles that need to be checked. I haven't been here long, but I've been working on a lot of Portuguese articles in the past few days, and I think I've worked it out. The secret is to leave at least one sentence untranslated, so that other people will see the article and upvote your sentences while they add to it or finish it.
@zoeyandfriends: link me to the article and I'll take a look. ;) Literature and Arts are my favorites, if possible...
Yeah, unfortunately the Portuguese community is far smaller than the others.
the portugues for english is less than 1.45 million, whereas the spanish for english is 10.8 million. 10% of the spanish is over 1 million, and 10% of portugues is a little over 100,000. the portugues community is the smallest, however, it reduces spam since no one will probably edit or do another translation of it.
since you finished both spanish and portugues trees, how much similar are they? would dropping spanish and doing portugues 100% be sufficient to understand spanish after completing the spanish tree? im more interested in portugues but spanish is much more important for me to understand.
Portuguese is an important language. It is one of the most spoken languages in the world and Brazil has a good future. If you are more interested, Portuguese would be a better option because you enjoy it.
according to resent studies, brazil doesnt have a good future anymore. it has too many internal problems and external as well (u.s. spying on brazils president and other government officials).
I think you should complete the trees if you want to have a reasonable grasp of the language. Most of the rules are the same and a lot of the vocabulary overlaps, but their are enough differences in words and spellings that one tree isn't a substitute for the other.
people say how if one understands portugues, they understand spanish, but not other way around. did you find that?
I learned Spanish first, so no idea. Spoken they are different enough that I don't think there's any cross-over, at least to a non-native speaker in both. (I'm an English native speaker.)
Portuguese has more vowel sounds than Spanish, so this could be a factor.
I agree! It's great! I only started translating a few days ago, but I'm learning a lot more words this way.
There are some general problems in all immersons sections:
Many texts are rubbish. They should be uploaded by native speakers who can estimate, if the text is of some use and give some background informations on what it is about and why it was uploaded and not by a automated routine or a robot.
At the moment shortsighted help blind, so to say. There are more native speakers needed to check the translations. I sometimes check the german section. But I only have so much time. There should be rewards for native speakers checking translations e.g. strengthening their opposite tree.
It would be nice, if immersions would also strengthen the tree of the language you are practicing in immersions.
users in low levels of a language (early beginners), thus only with 50% understanding , are deterred by downvoting, as you need 90% to climb the tiers. If you collect many downvotes due to being a beginner and think, that you have to make them up later, you wait till you are proficient enough in your eyes, to try immersions.
The email spamming is a generall problem at duolingo. One email with all natifications once a day would be enough.
While 1–4 are valid concerns, 5 is easy: you can turn email-notifications off for certain things
No 5 is all or nothing. I want the notifications, but not in this amount.
Yes, I literally just reached it! Probably thanks to you :) I noticed how you corrected a few of my translations.
Here's a screenshot I took while clicking F5:
I find the slow progress through the tiers frustrating too. Unfortunately it gets worse as you go on since there are, obviously, fewer people on higher tiers, and you need upvotes from people your tier or higher. Therefore I try to upvote as much as I can, to create more high-tier translators to upvote me. All very selfish, you see! :)
I think everyone can be found guilty of trying to cheat the translator system. It really was made for when there are many people using it, which is not the case here. Personally, my misdeed is translating tables with numbers and names and stuff. Only 1 XP but many upvotes to be gathered.
Also, upvoting gives XP starting with level 2, so that's nice to motivate me to do so
Hello, I have just made my first attempt at translating, and I think I have some insight which may help some people to improve. What I found, when reviewing other work, was that many translations are too literal and don't make as much sense in English. In order to convey the correct meaning, sometimes you have to look at how the intended meaning would be best conveyed in English, even if this means diverting from the exact wording. Also, English sentences tend to be more active, so in most cases the elements of the sentence will need to be rearranged to sound right.
Just you wait untill you have perfectly good sentences downvoted - not corrected, or changed, but downvoted, by someone who obviously understands a lot less than you do.. And then a downvote counts five times as much as an upvote? A good translation takes time, effort and thoughts; you have to think of words, style and grammar. I don't mind being corrected, but untill Duolingo stops downvoting, my immersion times are over. My time is better spent listening to Portuguese radio, or reading whatever I find of interest.
I'll add a PS: As I have been ignoring the immersion, I have been upgraded to tier 2, so maybe I'll give it a new try? Just checked and found out :)
The downvote system also changed, by the way. You move to the next tier when you have 100 upvotes, and at least 90% of your votes are positive. So you could get 10 downvotes without it affecting your progress at all, versus in the past where getting 10 downvotes would mean you would need 150 upvotes to move to the next tier.
Ah ok, I haven't had that experience yet as I have just started. I can see how that must be really frustrating. I'll make the effort to look at all previous versions of the translation before choosing one to up vote in future.
I've noticed also that people tend to only translate headlines. This fact is especially problematic for getting rated for translations toward the end of an article. Perhaps, the point system could be modified slightly so that the translator receives more points for sentences as they translate or rate more sentences within the same article. A sort of cumulative effect...
How does the Immersion section help keeping Duolingo free as you say? I don't understand how it works. I read that, but I don't get it. Are the translations sold to anyone? What if I upload a site and translate it? How does that help Duolingo?
Okay, basically, duolingo gets paid for translating texts, which they do via crowdsourcing in the immersion section. This is one of the things that make it so unique: You're not just learning and paying for it, you're translating the internet!
If you go to the page where you upload a new document you'll see that there are two options: non-commercial and commercial. Non-commercial only accepts contents under a creative commons license. There is no copyright infringement. Originals are free and so are the translations we do. The commercial ones are the ones that bring money to the site. You own a certain content. You want it translated. You submit it and wait for it to be done. When it is done (by the community, just like the non-commercial ones, I think...), you pay for it.
I do spanish mostly, but the edits get annoying because when i do immersion for spanish, my notifications gets spammed from people editing my translations or someone also translating the same sentence. I might do portugues but spanish is more important for me now, unless i encounter more portugues people or i can fully understand spanish from learning portugues
How experienced should a person be before attempting a document translation? I would love to start, but I'm afraid my translations won't be very good since I'm a beginner. What level should I be?
In my personal opinion, it doesn't matter, just give it a go. Start with the simplest sentences, you don't have to translate every sentence in order, you can pick and choose. The hardest thing is to work out which documents to work on. There is a great variety, but no good way of sifting through them.
I agree with hburdon, but I would add that you should be prepared for your sentences to be reviewed and altered. Sometimes you won't get why (because not everyone comments on their revisions), but when you get someone who explains to you why it is like this and not what you had put in the first place, you usually learn a lot. I find immersion a good way of learning and sharing with other learners here.
My sister has Immersion but I don't! She is on a high level of Spanish, but I am really low and I don't have Immersion. Can anyone please reply to let me know why?
Hi FluffyPaws007 The reason that you don't have Immersion may be because you are part of an A/B test - Duolingo are trying to find out whether it's worth keeping Immersion or not. To use Immersion without you having the tab, look at this link: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/16080760
Hope this helps
I tried to do Immersion but I didn't really understand what you are supposed to do. I also didn't know that you got XP from it. I will try to do it now because I really want to get to level 8 in Spanish!
I tried to do Immersion just now but I found it too hard to translate. I knew some of the words but most of them I didn't know.
On the blue bar across the top of the page, on the right hand side, is the word "immersion." Click on that word, and it brings up a list of articles to be translated. Then on the right side of that page, a little way down the page, you will find filters to set it for your skill level. Welcome to this part of the site. I have given you some lingots as a welcome gift. This is a fun and helpful part of the language learning on this site. Let me know if you have any problems or other questions.
I'm so sorry. I think immersion is a critical part of this language learning program. Camilla, below, has suggested that you may want to try opening another account. I read a post somewhere, sorry can't remember where, a couple of weeks ago from someone giving very detailed information about how to do that. If I can find it I will give you the link.
yes, I think so too! And now (April 26, 2017), Immersion has been discontinued for almost 4 months, and I'm enjoying this look back at what was so great about immersion, and the discussions about how to make it work best!
do you see it? Because from what I understand some users do, and some don't. This is randomly assigned by Duolingo to find out what works best - what is called A and B testing. I hope you have immersion. Everyone should have it I think.
This may sound silly but I've been looking for the "Immersion" and I can't find how to access this feature. I'm eager to contribute to duolingo's translation service. Could anyone tell me how do I get involve? Is there any sort of requirement for this?
It seems that a lot of people do not have an immersion tab. I´m not sure what Duolingo is doing, but someone said they are doing some studies and improvements. I hope that soon everyone will have the ability to do the immersion.
Mmm it is good to know. I was starting to think that the only one with this issue was me. Gracias por la aclaración.
i can't do that only know 212 German word as duolingo say and my english never better
Why bother? It's so much work compared to the tree, and it doesn't really give you anything you can't get from the tree.
That isn't strictly true. Duo gives you about 2000 basic words in random out of context sentences. That is enough to get you in the door, but a language has thousands more words that need to be learned to fully appreciate it. Immersion however has an unlimited vocabulary and a natural context, you can easily look up words as you are reading, you can get help from other people, and last but not least you actually get to know that you contributed something to this cause :p
But yeah ok, why bother.
I disagree, immersion allows you to practice your comprehension, reading, writing as well as translating skills. The lessons only test this to an extent and with limited vocabulary, and provide no context.
In addition, once you finish the tree, immersion is the only way to expand your vocabulary and continue on the road to high language proficiency.
Sure there are lots of other ways. I originally ramped up in French by reading children's books, and then moved on to a couple of young-adult kind of novels, and finally novels (I seriously love Daniel Pennac's Malaussène series).
But Duolingo immersion is a good way to do it with feedback. I just think we need more fiction.
In my opinion, all of that is called immersion. You are immersing yourself in the literature of a culture, to gain a better understanding of it, and learn more.
Of course it also helps to live in a place where the target language is spoken. ;)
To reach fluency (high proficiency) there is no other way. You need to "immerse" yourself, in the literature, the language, the culture, and the community. How else are you going to know that "Portuguese came in a boat" means that a person doesn't know how to speak a language properly?
You could do it in a much better way than the Duolingo immersion. Also, what's "Portuguese came in a boat"? I googled it and it gave me no results.
I think at first doing inmertion was a bit difficult because it is not clear the way you have to make it. Sorry, somo of us are not smart enough. the other fact is a bit hard to translate and being corrected .
the other fact is a bit hard to translate and being corrected .
How else are you going to learn though?
Yes of course it´s very important to be corrected , but people feel unsure at being on that situation.
I have been trying to find the immersion button for a while and I cannot find it apart from that the only issue I have with immersion is that I am not sure i know enough of any of the languages that I am learning :S. I wanted to translate eng n spanish which i speak fluently but if you are not studying a language I don't think they allow you to translate do they?
Hi Dragontrs The reason that you don't have Immersion may be because you are part of an A/B test - Duolingo are trying to find out whether it's worth keeping Immersion or not. To use Immersion without you having the tab, look at this link: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/16080760
Hope this helps SunsetRain
There's an interesting tension in the whole concept of Duolingo immersion which I think is interesting, and which lurks behind and even drives some of the issues that we've noticed: That is to say that translating into your target language is an excellent learning technique, but in order to get a really high quality translation the translator must be native in the target language.
So Duolingo users have a strong motivation to translate into languages which they are learning, but part of the original business model of Duo as I understand it was to train us up in a given language so that we could then translate back from that language to our native one. That's why for instance in immersion I see texts in my three target languages, and am asked to translate them into English which is my mother tongue.
But it's clear to any immersion user that there are quite a few translators who are in fact non-native. I can't blame them; it's a great learning exercise, but it does tend to result in less than fluid texts.
A lot of people don't do immersion because you can't use it in the iPad...(or iPhone)
This is true. I used to use it on my iPad, but then the program was changed is some way and it did not work any longer. Now, it is only my computer that I can translate through.
Translation is a specific skill, completely separate from learning a language. It is not one I am interested in acquiring. I know plenty of people who are fluent in a language who can't translate at all, and conversely I know people who can translate but not speak. Of course some people can do both, but my point is doing one does not make you good at the other, and I am only interested in Speaking / Reading.
I find it funny how everyone is talking about immersion and how it works. I'm over here trying to find the place.
It was always thought of as a way for duolingo to make money, not as a way for us to learn, so when they realized it wasn't making them money they gradually started phasing it out.
They are phasing it out, if you don't see the link you don't have it. None of the new courses have it and they are A/Bing the users so only some people have it. I only have in t when I am learning Portuguese through English.
I think it's because immersion requires a huge monitoring commitment. They have to worry about copyright and naughtiness, mostly the latter.
They actually got rid of because they could not use someone's work (the translators/learners) without compensation. That's why they are doing ads now. There has to be a way for Duolingo to make money, so that they can provide free language education.