https://www.duolingo.com/Ellie-369

difference between "Tbl" and "Bbl"

Hi! I'm wondering what is the difference between "Tbl" and Bbl"? And how do you use them, and when do you use them for what phrases? Sorry for asking so many questions. Have a great day. Thanks. :) -Elena (ljohn36)

December 22, 2016

46 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/Djenthallman
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  • Ты — singular informal "you"
  • Вы — singular formal or plural "you"
December 22, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Ellie-369

ok, thanks.

December 22, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/james225907

Wasn't sure about the plural before, thanks

January 3, 2019

https://www.duolingo.com/Mop_Mop
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"Ты" - для близких родственников и друзей. Для детей.

"Вы" - для всех остальных.

December 22, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Ellie-369

Thanks :)

December 22, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Mop_Mop
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Pay attention. You said you have five siblings. I have three aunts.

One of them I call "ты". The other two I call "вы".

Because the first one is close relative for me, I know her from my childhood. The other two also my relatives. But we rarely communicated, we didn't know each other well. Therefore, I call them "вы".

December 22, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Ellie-369

oh, ok. Thanks. that is helpful. So "tbl" is used with people that you are know very well, and "Bbl" is used for people that you don't know very well, like if you just meet them. Right?

December 22, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Fekla
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Not necessarily. "Вы" is a polite/formal form. You should use it speaking with you college, your teacher, older person (not close relative), etc. even if you know them very well. "Ты" is familiar and informal. You can use it with kids, animals (yes, some of us talk to animals!) even if you've never seen them before. Or, if you intentionally want to be rude to adult person.

December 22, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Mop_Mop
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Фёкла, не учи девочку плохому.

December 22, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Ellie-369

ok

December 22, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/IlianaBill

Or talking to your friends. I feel like anyone you couldn't ask, "What's Up?" to, using any sort of slang, you should refer to them as Вы and not ты.

December 28, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/Mop_Mop
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<<So "tbl" is used with people that you are know very well>> You know them very well, and they are your friends or closest relatives. In any other case, you will make no mistake if you call them "вы".

December 22, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Ellie-369

ok, thanks

December 22, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Nikolai_Novikov
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That it is a very context dependent thing - depends on generation, age and profession as well some people are ok with strangers calling them ты, some are extremely not ok with it, some could actually be offended by "вы".

Since you are a foreigner and cannot be expected to feel such things on the fly you will not offend but I suggest you stay on the formal side and stick with "вы" at least until your opponent suggests the shift ("перейдём на ты" or "можно на ты?") - it is actually a commonplace in communications between russians - to start with "вы" and shift to "ты".

December 26, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Ellie-369

ok, thanks

December 26, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/sethmalory
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Also remember that their verbs conjugate differently. You probably have heard the phrase "Вы говорите по-русски?" If you wanted to say Ты instead of Вы then you would have to say "Ты говоришь по-русски?"

"Ты говорите?" is totally wrong. Just keep that in mind. Duolingo will take points off if you get this wrong. (But, if you were saying this, it would probably be to a stranger or someone you don't know very well, so Ты говоришь is probably very rare. After all, your close friends would probably know if you spoke Russian or not.)

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that Вы and Ты are also the reason for Ваш and Твой (someone please correct me if I am wrong: Ваш is also formal, and Твой is informal?).

December 22, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Mop_Mop
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<<"Ты говоришь по-русский?" is totally wrong.>>

Yes, it is wrong. Your last "й" is wrong.

"Ты говоришь по-русски?" or "Ты говоришь на русском?" are perfectly normal.

December 22, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/sethmalory
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Oops! I changed it.

"Ты говорите?" is totally wrong. "Ты говоришь" is actually totally fine.

I meant to write "Ты говорите?" as my wrong example. I must have not been thinking. :)

Pardon my asking Daniil_ALX, but why is it "Ты говоришь по-русскИ?" and not "Ты говоришь по-русскИЙ?" I already changed it in the comment above: I believe you. But a grammatical explanation would help a lot. Спасибо.

December 23, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Kundoo
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"По-русски" is not an adjective but an adverb. So it is not really "speaking Russian language" but rather "speaking Russian way" or something like that. The closest analog I could think of is French "à la".

This form exists in other phrases:

Вести себя по-свински - to act piggishly

Одеваться по-европейски - to dress European style

Заботиться по-матерински - to care like a mother

But overall it's not the most common word structure. It's only used prominently in regard to speaking languages.

December 23, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/sethmalory
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Thank you for this explanation! I know this is nowhere along the lines of the current discussion, but this is good to know for the future!

Спасибо большое!

December 23, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Ellie-369

oh, ok thanks

December 23, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Rappelke

This is more another question than an answer to the original post. But since you're here to discuss the topic -

Has the change in policial system made a difference in the use of ты и вы? I'm thinking of Czech, where under Communism everybody was supposed to view everybody else as a "comrade" and "be on ty." with them. After the Velvet Revolution, they went back to vy and where the rest of Europe seems to use the equivalent of ty generally, the Czechs are revelling in being able to use the polite form again. (Historical note: Vaclav Havel, when he was being interrogated in prison, used to infuriate his questionners (and receive blows to the face for it) by automatically using the polite form - a habit in the upper classes his family came from.)

December 23, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Nikolai_Novikov
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Ya, I guess usage of ты did become much more liberal with the revolution as a sign of both equality ,supposedly closer ties (if all people are brothers "ты" becomes part of the propaganda) and as opposition to upper class habbits but I dont think "вы" ever got banned(definitely not in second half of XX) and havent seen any reveling in it since the collapse of the union.

Also note that similar duality as ты/вы exists in other european languages that I encountered - swedish, spanish, german. And the rules seem to be fairly close to russian (well sweidsh I think has less of вы (ni as they call it but still).

December 26, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Rappelke

I'm doing Danish here, and du seems pretty much universal, even in tv broadcasts.

There was an historical drama that was shown a couple of years ago, and some younger people had real difficulty with the formal De (вы), which - written 'de" is used for 'they' in ordinary speech. (A poster responded to a quetion on the subject.) Some people know to use De for elderly persons, but the custom seems to be dying out.

I've heard the situation is the same in the Netherlands, but I haven't gotten around to confirming it.

December 26, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Nikolai_Novikov
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ya in swedish it is pretty much the same - I understand it is only used for very formal situations typically for people which are either way above you socially (i.e. royals) or (and this is an interesting part) that you consider to be way below you - the later obviously is considered offensive so I guess contributes to usage of "ты" (du in swedish"). But in German I understand the situation is very close to Russian - "вы" analogue is preferable to "ты"

December 26, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/MagnusBoiv
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Nikolai_Novikov, in Swedish before the 1970s 'du' (singular you) was used in informal situations, and titles were used in formal situations. 'Ni' (plural you) was only used to people of lower rank than yourself. Since then everyone always use 'du', except when speaking to royals, where titles still are used. However some young people have recently been starting to use 'ni' when as an employee speaking to customers, trying to be polite. Probably influenced by German or French. Sometimes they instead offend older people who remember how 'ni' was used previously.

December 29, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Rappelke

I'll watch for the offensive use of the formal form in Danish - you're right, that interesting. From what I remember seeing in German, I agree. Maybe the Czechs tend to follow the their usage? (As a foreigner, I was usually vy to strangers, of course.)

December 26, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Rappelke

(There's a limit to the number of exchanges here, so I can't add a reply to your last post.)

I don't understand your queston: most people who spoke to me in Czech used vy except people I knew (other translators, with whom I had something in common). For most people I was simply a foreigner. (One with a Russian accent, at least at first - it was my first foreign language.)

As for the kids, I didn't notice any of them through university age saying vy to each other, except as a joke.


I was trying to say that du in Danish seems practically universal, not vy in Czech.
Vy is being used the way it used to be, as far as I can tell, which means, more widely than in the democratic-socialist countries of Western Europe. The rules seemed equivalent to American rules for using first names - coworkers, among all students whether known or not, but in most cases not the boss or your professors.

The way you go onto ty is to go drinking, cross arms at the elbow while holding your beer mug, and take a swallow. After that you call each other ty. (Or somebody simply suggests it, but that's boring.)

Maybe Вы for family members pre-Revolution was from vous in French? (Did Tolstoy's characters use it??)

December 26, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Nikolai_Novikov
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Do you know the name for that drinking in czech or danish? In russian it's commonly known as "пить на брудершафт" (later is obviously a borrowing from german meaning brotherhood). So if you address a stranger as "ты" and he doesnt like it he would reply "We didnt drink to brotherhood with you". Old-russian word with somewhat similar meaning is братчина. Also the act of using "ты" when undesirable is called "тыкать" which sounds same as "poke" so a reply would be "Why are you poking me?" or "no need for poking"

December 28, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Nikolai_Novikov
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Even those younger than you and of same social standing? Would it make a difference if it is 1)passerby on the street 2)somebody introduced to you at work 3)somebody introduced to you in an informal setting? 4)at what age do children start to use "вы" to eachother? If you dont mind me asking which decade were you born in?

December 26, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Nikolai_Novikov
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"How do you turn down a request to go to ty in Russian?"

1)just stick to "вы" - possibly pointedly, stressing the вы - opponent should get the hint eventually. 2)давайте без панибратства (related to "pan" in mid-european?) /фамильярности . 3)мы с вами на брудершафт не пили. 4)не надо мне тыкать!

December 29, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Nikolai_Novikov
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Oh, I thought you were czech. Thing is you said that "вы" is being used uniformly. And as I think of it this might have been the case for upper classes in russian empire - to use "вы" even within close family - so it is not unthinkable. On other hand there is above mentioned sweden where almost everyone can be addressed as "ты". So I wanted to know where on the specter Chzech is.

Also note like I said in reply a bit above rules are not clearly cut - like you say in university students still use ты - and where I work (IT) that tradition is pretty much followed (with exceptions such as in university when addressing professor). So personally I would feel awkward to address/be addressed as вы by collegue, but not by client (or a random person on the street)

So I wanted to compare the usage of ты/вы in different settings - how "close" would you have to be to shift to "ты".

December 26, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Nikolai_Novikov
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Took a look at WP - they used "вы" even when talking inside family (son to father) "— Я уж вам говорил, папенька, — сказал сын, — что, ежели вам не хочется меня отпустить, я останусь."

December 28, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/Rappelke

WP - it looks familiar. Maybe it sounded "right" when used from a child to a parent. I wanted to check, but gave away all my Russian literature before leaving Prague. (I actually got through WP over a long Christmas vacation there. A bit of advice to those who haven't read it yet - do so before you get too old to enjoy it.) I eventually started skipping the bits on the great man of history theory well before the end. Black or white quesstions are boring, since almost everything is some shade of gray.

I've put out requests for info on the drinking custom in CS and DA.

How do you turn down a request to go to ty in Russian? In Slovak, it was When did we drive geese together?

Time to start a general discussion of the use of the two forms in various languages, I think.

December 28, 2016

https://www.duolingo.com/R_Andersson

To add to all these comments, I have found out, that ты – although being informal – is used when addressing God. I was actually a bit surprised when I first read it on Wiktionary:

God is addressed (vocative: Боже) with the informal ты ‎(ty), not the formal вы ‎(vy), and verb imperatives in singular (дай ‎(daj), сохрани́ ‎(soxraní), храни́ ‎(xraní))

This can be seen in the national anthem of the Russian Empire, called «Боже, Царя храни!» («God save the tsar'!»):

Боже, Царя храни! Сильный, державный, Царствуй на славу, на славу нам! Царствуй на страхъ врагамъ, Царь православный! Боже, Царя храни!

January 1, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/Gwenci
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I think that "ты" used for addressing God is a relic of the times when there was no polite "вы" in Russian (which only appeared in the 18th century as a calque from French).

January 2, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/daughterofAlbion
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English originally had two forms thou (singular) and ye (plural). Gradually the formal you (plural form for single person) was introduced by the Normans (11th-16th centuries). Like Russian, English uses "Thou" for God, because that predates the polite "you".

January 6, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/R_Andersson

Interesting. Thanks for sharing!

January 2, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/MagnusBoiv
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In English the singular pronouns are also often used for God: thou, thee, thy and thine.

January 2, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/R_Andersson

Oh, yeah. Come to think of it, I have seen that. Interesting! In Swedish, the informal pronoun is also used (often capitalized: Du) with God, but I only assumed it was that way because Swedish has no formal way of addressing another person since the du-reform of 1969.

Before the du-reform, du was only used with really, really close friends. Women addressed their husbands with du, but the children addressed their parents and other family members with titles (far, mor, farbror, syster etc.). Women of relatively the same age and social status addressed other with their first names, where hence men (under the same conditions) addressed each other with surnames. In addition, the third person singular pronouns were often used: ”Önskar Herr Chefsförman lite kaffe till hans lunch?” – ”Does Mister Cheif Foreman want some with his lunch?”. Passive forms were also often used: ”Önskas det kaffe till lunchen?”

Bror Rexed, one of the initiators of the du-reform, says ”Kalla mig Bror!” (‘Call me Bror!’).

Because of this, I would expect it God to be addressed with titles, such as ‘The Allmighty’, ‘God’ («Боже») or lord «Господи».

January 2, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/lavendeltee
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In German one adresses God with the capitalized Du as well (Vater unser im Himmel, geheiligt werde Dein Name...).

January 2, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/R_Andersson

Danke für die Information, Lena!

January 2, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/VivernRUS

I recommend this video, very clear – https://youtu.be/_qHR6A_mQFU

October 14, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/Nicols719826
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Hi! I hope that you are fine The differences are simple Ты is an informal way to say "you" like in Spanish "tú", it behaves like in Spanish, due to in English does not exist an informal version of you, and itself is a singular form too Вы instead is polite, and is used when you don´t know the another person, and it can be translated into "usted" in a formal way like if it would be in Spanish. You can use this pronoun for plural also, like Spanish "ustedes" again. Be careful with the declension of them becasue you should taking into account the context, the gender, and the conjugation of the verb when you use one of them. As you could see, Spanish has a better explanation than English for this differences. For example: Как вас зовут? What is your name? (formal and plural) Как тебя зовут? What is your name? (informal )

Вы играете в парке You play in the park (formal and plural) Ты играешь в парке You play in the park (informal )

Она готовит кашу с вами She cooks porridge with you (formal and plural) Она готовит кашу с тобой She cooks porridge with you (informal )

December 4, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/RandomAlina

Ok, so when you say "Вы" towards one person, it is more formal, like you usually say it to a person that is older than you. Kind of like you show respect. Or "Вы" also means "plural you", more than one person. "Ты" means "you" but not formal. You say "Ты" to your friends, family, and people who you don't need to be formal with.

June 24, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/Dmitry.Pavlov

I would say there are two ты/вы cases. 1) ты/вы as you/you signle and plural 2) ты/Вы as both single you, but first is informal and second is a polite formal form. I would suggest to always use Вы as it is polite and even close friends and family won't mind if you are a bit over polite with them, right? ;) Later you will easily switch to less formal ты where it is more appropriate.

February 17, 2019
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