Sound of "R" in word endings
In spoken turkish, both in Duolingo and outside (i.e. songs etc), I've noticed that the sound of "r" when a word ends in it, is pronounced somewhat strangely, as if it contains a sound similar to the "th" in "this" (the greek delta, for those familiar with greek).
Any comments/rules on that?
It's actually really interesting because I always thought it sounded like /ʃ/ (English sh). I've read a bit about it and here's what I found out (I'm going to use the International Phonetic Alphabet but I'll give approximations/descriptions so don't worry if you're not familiar with it):
Turkish r is essentialy an alveolar flap /ɾ/ (somewhat softer/lighter than Greek's r. Spanish makes a distinction between /r/ (carro, rojo) and /ɾ/ (caro, amor). Wikipedia says that [ɾ̞̊] (Voiceless alveolar tapped fricative) is a common alophone of Turkish r at the end of a word. So it's kind of between that flap /ɾ/ and a fricative /s/ (English s). So technically we should hear a similarity with an s. And s is pronounced somewhere between /θ/ (Greek θ, English th) and /ʃ/ (English sh) so it's possible that we can hear something similar to those sounds (or to δ for that matter if it's voiced).
Anyway, I can't pronounce it like a Turk so if you can't either, I think we should just stick to the normal r :D Interesting that we can hear the same thing in very different ways depending on our native language (Polish doesn't have a θ sound). For example, when I was starting learning Greek, Greek s and z sounded very strange to me (like Polish sz/ż, similar to German sch, somewhat harder).
To me, the german s as in "sein" or "sie", sounds like the greek z. You are right, it is very interesting, that we can make different distinctions or parellelisms, depending on what we're used to hearing.
German s is just the /z/ sound, the same as English z. Greek ζ is roughly the same sound but you usually pronounce it somewhere between English z and zh (the same with s/sh). That's why I had that impression.
Although we're drifting a bit off-topic here, modern greek has no distinction between thicker and more light pronunciations of ζ or σ. The lighter version is used, mostly, with any variations being regional. Another thing that doesn't exist in modern greek, is long and short vowels (i.e. ship vs sheep), which can make things a bit tricky (sip/ship/sheep). The (difficult) spelling is all that remains from the times when letters did have different pronunciation and/or duration.
I know, I've finished that tree after all :) It's interesting how much simpler Greek pronunciation has become since Ancient Greek. Vowels are as simple as in Spanish, the pitch accent (/tones) disappeared etc. You're right with the spelling. Sometimes I made 3 mistakes in one word because I didn't know if I should write ι, υ, η, οι or ει :)
I never noticed that we have a different prononciation of "r" letter. Can you give me some example words? As a Turk I can't think of any words ends with "r" letter right now :D
To give you an example, listen to this song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XukRJh_5N4o
In about 1.30 there is a word ending in R sounding like meyer, and in about 1.40 there is the world "zaferler'. The difference between the r in the middle (zafeR) and the ending r (zaferleR), is quite pronounced.
I think it's because of the singer. We don't have that difference. If it's R it's R. We don't have any changes according to a position.
Just made a quick search about it. https://eksisozluk.com/sezen-aksunun-r-harfini-telaffuz-edisi--4040313 That means "The prononciation of R letter by Sezen Aksu"
The platform is like a Turkish reddit. It says she is making a noise like şh if R is at the end. But this is Sezen Aksu-ish, not Turkish so it's just R. :)
You can use regular R sound with confidence. I will be using the same as a Turk!
Well, I just noticed it again, in Duolingo's female voice and specifically in the words yüzüyor and hiçbir, so it's probably not just Ms Aksu's fault
After every plural noun when you have -lar / -ler it's super easy to notice this sound of "sh". To be honest due to that most of the Turkish people I am working with also speak English in the same way :)
Well I did notice that Turks have a range of peculiar pronounciations of the 'r' ... For instance like in the word 'bornoş' . It seems to me the R is inbetween a L and a R, definitaly different then in any other language I know. Very often I hear Turks make an English 'R'. I am glad Turks never make a French R which I dislike.
I think you are confusing the words. We don't have a word "bornoş" or "bornor" of "bornol". Did you mean "bornoz"? And in this case it's regular z :)
I've always heard as something between reminiscent of lovely Spanish Rrrrs.
A better question is how are words chosen to not voice the r at the end of word? As in:
- Ne istiyo?
- Nusret geliyo.
- Yağmur yağıyo.