"Quanto ti ho pensata!"
Translation:How much I have thought of you!
78 CommentsThis discussion is locked.
You ever see something for the first time and, after realizing it makes no sense, you take a stab at it anyway and surprisingly get it right on the first try? Isn't that nice? It's kind of like opening the dictionary to the exact page you wanted to go to.
I'm having difficulty with this use of past participles ending with 'a' but conjugated with the verb avere. 'Quanto ti ho pensata' , 'L'ho trovata' and so on. Can someone help by explaining why these don't end in 'o'?
The rule is that when a clitic is included in the conjugation the participle takes on the gender and number of the object instead of the subject; not all grammars agree though, and the accepted usage is that while recommended it's only truly mandatory when there is room for misinterpretation e.g. "l'ho trovato" vs "l'ho trovata" (you wouldn't know if it's him or her without the participle's gender). A few years ago Roberto Benigni sang "Quanto t'ho amato e quanto t'amo non lo sai" (how much I loved you and how much I love you, you don't know) and only a handful questioned the grammar.
I'm pretty sure the participles agree only with lo,la, li, le, and not with mi ti, ci ,vi though.
Nope; as an academic of the Crusca wrote at http://www.accademiadellacrusca.it/it/lingua-italiana/consulenza-linguistica/domande-risposte/accordo-participio-passato "La possibilità di scelta per i punti 2, 3 e 4 è esistita da sempre in italiano e le restrizioni di tanto in tanto indicate da qualche grammatico sono da considerarsi infondate" (the possibility of choice for points 2, 3 and 4 has always existed in Italian and the restrictions from time to time indicated by some grammarian have to be considered baseless). Point 2 is this case (direct object as a pronoun preceding the verb): note the example "ci ha ingannato" - "ci ha ingannati".
There is a good explanation for this phenomena from the Accademia della Crusca, but the whole text is in Italian: http://bit.ly/1leGmy2
2401
A semi-automatic translation/adaptation attempt:
Question
A. Dell'Era asks: If the intransitive form of "pensare" in the expressions "penso a mia figlia", "penso a mio fratello", etc., why does the verb become transitive when the noun is replaced by the pronoun? ("La penso", "lo penso" instead of "le penso", "gli penso"). Other users have expressed similar perplexities.
The verb "pensare" with the atonic pronouns
The verb "pensare" can be both transitive and therefore hold an object complement, and intransitive and supporting an indirect complement, which however is not a term complement, but a locative. Let's see in detail the two cases:
When it is transitive, the most recurring form is that with the anticipation of the object complement with the atonic pronoun, so "la penso", "lo penso" even if the corresponding forms "penso lei", "penso lui" are not incorrect; it is true that they can be perceived as unusual, but in reality they are more natural, and they are even more used, in contexts where they are accompanied by some predicative form, such as "penso lui ancora giovane e snello". Also at the semantic level there are subtle differences between transitive pensare that is so defined, in Tullio De Mauro's Grande Dizionario italiano dell'uso: "raffigurare con la mente, esaminare con il pensiero, anche escogitare, inventare" ("to imagine with the mind, to examine with thought, also to devise, invent") and intransitive pensare, which instead assumes the meaning of "avere il pensiero rivolto a qualcuno o a qualcosa" ("having the thought turned to someone or something"), with an affective connotation that in the first case is less relevant.
In the intransitive form the verb "pensare" is followed by a complement ruled by the preposition "a", a complement which however contrary to what might seem, is not a term complement, but a complement that indicates the place, real or metaphorical, to which the thought is addressed. In the passage from the tonic form that follows the verb, like "sto pensando a lei", to the atonic form that precedes the verb, just by virtue of the fact that it is a locative, the clitic is inserted there, thus "ci sto pensando" even when the object of thought is a person. In fact, limited to the form "ci penso", it has also been hypothesized that the disapproval of the grammarians with respect to the popular use, widespread in some Italian regions, of "ci" as a complement of the term referred as third and sixth person ("ci dico" for "gli/le dico, dico loro").
To verify this peculiarity of the verb "pensare" it is possible to perform, for example, a search for the sequences "le penso" and "gli penso" in the CD-ROM of Letteratura Italiana Zanichelli which has a search engine that allows you to identify a given sequence on a corpus of about 1,000 texts of Italian literature from its origins until today: the result of this research offers a unique context in Orlando Furioso (canto 29, octave 71: "Orlando non le pensa e non la guarda" referring to a dying beast), which turns out to be the only case attested, also confirmed by the critical edition of the Orlando Furioso edited by Santorre Debenedetti and Cesare Segre (Bologna, 1960).
For further information:
- A. Leone, Conversazioni sulla lingua italiana, Florence, Leo S. Olschki Editor, 2002, pp. 53-4.
- L. Renzi, Grande grammatica italiana di consultazione, Bologna, Il Mulino, 1991, vol. I, p. 568.
- L. Serianni, Italiano, Milan, Garzanti, 2000, p. 179.
Curated by Raffaella Setti Drafting Linguistic Consultancy Accademia della Crusca
Holy smokes! I'm going to need the weekend to digest this! Thanks sharkbbb!
No, because the italian sentence does not imply/suggest a question, but - on the contrary - it is an exclamation about a very deep feeling.
Now you have just changed the interrogation for an exclamation mark. Therefore, you also changed the meaning of your sentence, but you'd rather change the position of the auxiliary verb, as well, by placing it after the subject. So, the sentence would be exactly as proposed by Duolingo!
To me "How much have I thought of you!" sounds equally (if not more) natural in English. I have reported this.
Hmmm... To me "How much have I thought of you!" works but only in very dramatic terms. It really wants the question mark instead.
As you've written it, itwould work for Shakespeare but I think it's reasonable that DL won't take it :-)
As a native English speaker, I have to disagree. I couldn't imagine wording it that way, it just sounds strange.
I don't think so, because "quanto" is singular, so it's how much, not how many.
Sorry, neither correct answer is natural English. We'd say 'I've thought of you so much'. However, we would say How much you mean to me'. Roberto Benigni sang "Quanto t'ho amato e quanto t'amo non lo sai" but we would reverse the order (you don't know how (much) I loved you and how (much) I love you (still)
From one old bat to another - I think you're right. We'd say: 'I thought about you SO much!' :)
- 980
I appreciate this free program but I do have a question. If I'm receiving sentences that are that poorly understood in English, then how do I know about the quality of the translation to Italian? Thanks for all of the help that everyone gives.
you can use "pensato" it is correct as well DL tips: If the verb is conjugated with a third person direct object clitic (lo, la, l', li, le) or (with some exceptions) the partitive clitic (ne), it must match gender and number of the clitic: Andrea li ha letti. Andrea has read them. If the verb is conjugated with any other direct object clitic, it can optionally match its gender and number: Antonio mi ha chiamata. OR Antonio mi ha chiamato. Antonio called me. (For a feminine "me.")
I suppose this answer to be wrong because I know that "pensare" is a intransitive verb which makes its objects indirect ones. Because of this, I think it has to be "pensato" and not "pensata" no matter one is talking about a woman or a man. Only direct objects require the past participle to be changed by gender.
What do you think?
Is this phrase of someone thinking of a person of female gender? hence "pensata", or is it used when used by a female gender thinking of any gender in general.
- 2401
When the auxiliary verb is avere, the past participle reflects the gender/number of the direct object represented by the atonic/clitic pronoun.
- mandatory for lo, l', la, li, le
- optional for mi, ti, ci, vi
- never for tonic/non-clitic pronouns
- never for indirect objects
- never for named objects
When the auxiliary verb is essere, the past participle reflects the gender/number of the subject (always mandatory).
I still don't understand why DL isn't accepting 'Quanto ti ho pensato' if I, a woman, am thinking about you, a man.
Ok, it's perfect. But my translation - I HAVE THOUGHT A LOT ABOUT YOU! - is correct, as well. Duolingo's other option is - "I have thought about you a lot!"-, which is correct, too.
So close! Duolingo wouldn't accept "How much have I thought of you!", but I guess this is the form it would take (in English) if it were a question, as noted in prior posts... The most natural translation to English (in my opinion, of course) would be "I have thought of you so much!".
No (American) english speaker would talk like this. "I have thought about you a lot." would be more likely. You might find this in a romance novel set in the 1800's with a heroine named Lady Catherine. ;)
- 980
With listening to all of the intellectual rules that want to support this sentence, it finally comes down to the fact that spoken laguage came first. The sentence does not work as currently written.
I wrote "How much I thought of you ! " and it was correct and I think it needs the exclamation mark !
"How much have i thought of you" is wrong. . I am not an English native and though here we learn Spanish, it surprises me that the reversal is wrong. Is it?
- 906
If pensata, in this instance, means thought, why is the dropdown clue saying (only) idea? That is confusing.
When the direct object pronoun (ti) precedes the past participle (pensato/a/i/e), the past participle needs to agree in gender with the direct object pronoun. So, in this case, the Italian sentence, in particular the past participle "pensata", indicates that "ti" is referring to a (only one) female. "Quanto ti ho pensato" would indicate "ti" is a man, "Quanto vi ho pensate" would indicate more than one female, "Quanto vi ho pensati" would indicate all males or a mix of males and females, etc.
Ah ... I was going to complain about the English here, but from the comments fformica made I realise it was from a song. Still terrible English.
- 92
I wish that Duo didn't so quickly go to the next sentence before I have a chance to read what is correct.
Duo really needs to work on teaching new words. This was my first time seeing "pensata" and duo told me it means idea. Idea was not a word i could choose from so i really had to just flat out guess what the word meant in this sentence...
Una pensata is an idea, or a thought, you are right. But this is pensato, the past participle of pensare, used here in the perfect tense, and it becomes "pensata" because it is preceded by a feminine direct object - see all of the explanations above
My question is: "pensare" means to think, "pensare a" is to think of/about someone, so why is this not "quanto ho pensato a te"?
You replace a te with the indirect object pronoun ti.
Same as in the sentence:
“Scrivo a lui” = “Gli scrivo”
But I think you could say:
“Quanto ho pensato a te”
Clearly this is my problem with learning Italian as and English speaker it makes a very awkward translation...
More appropriate English would be: I have thought much of you. Much, have I thought of you. How I have thought of you.
To start the phrase with "how" sets a phrasal expectations more for a question than a statement. Hence, Duo's verbatim translation here is incorrect. They should have used a connatative appraoch to the translation.
I think it is like saying:
How much I love you!
so starting with how doesn't mean it is a question.
In English, that phrase very much is a question. Either it is a question posed to oneself, to the universe or to a third party.
- How nice of you!
- How beautiful this song is!
- How smart she is!
- How cute this puppy is!
Starting a sentence with "How" doesn't necessary make it a question.
In this Italian sentence, the verb must be transitive, because the past participle agrees with the preceding (in this case, fem. sing.) direct object pronoun. Pensare can be transitive or intransitive. In the latter case, the same sentence could be recast as "Quanto ho pensato a te" or, alternatively, "Quanto ti ho pensato" (in which case ti is a preceding indirect object with which the past participle does not agree).
The past participle does not agree with the subject when the perfect tense is made with avere, except when certain object pronouns come in front of the verb.
Not exactly.
When the auxiliary verb is avere the past particle never agrees with the subject, but sometimes, like in this case (when we have indirect object pronoun ”ti”) it agrees with the object.
If the person you’ve been thinking of is female then you’d use pensata like in this sentence.
It’s not the person who is thinking, it is the person you are thinking of who is female in this sentence