Translated texts in Immersion??
I would like to know if Duolingo is going to let translators access the translated texts on Immersion in an only read mode to get them back. I would like to keep a copy of my and my collaborators' work in more than two years.
This is a short list of some of the texts we have translated and published back on the Wikipedia. Please, feel free to add yours.
There is still an awful lot of them that are just sitting there.
Let us hope all these years have not been useless!
Texts submitted for translation should certainly be accessed by the person who wanted to have them translated as it was with that aim that they were uploaded. Great suggestion!
Thanks letra_a. And there are so much more that are ready to be put on Wiki just waiting in immersion. I hope we can get them to help translate for the world. Hugs my friend.
It is a wonderful Idea, there is so much work done!!! It should be used and appreciated!!! Thanks Letra for your engagement!!!
Apoyo totalmente la iniciativa de mi amiga y compañera de traducción, Ana, porque la consideró justa y de utilidad para continuar nuestro desarrollo del inglés.
I have signed.
Todavia me estoy preguntando como llegué aqui, luego de buscar una razon para que la opcion de inmersion ya no se encuetre jajajja..... pero al ver esta peticion, no puedo dejar de apoyarla. Saludos Ana!
Muchas gracias por tu apoyo y bienvenido, Phakuphaku! :)) Si quieres enterarte de las noticias sobre inmersión, este es el hilo oficial (en inglés, principalmente) :) https://www.duolingo.com/comment/20364950
https://www.duolingo.com/comment/20366610 (relacionado y en español)
Un saludote! :)
Gracias por la info... porque la verdad ni idea como encontrar el "hilo oficial" de algo
Además, bienvenido es relativo jajaj... Llevo al menos un año en el sitio =)... pero Como estudio en la facultad no tengo mucho tiempo para dedicarle.
Bienvenido a mi mundo, entonces :)) Mucha suerte en tus estudios y con el aprendizaje de idiomas, que implica mucho más que simplemente aprender a hablar diferente: es un puente que une culturas y nos hace siempre mejores. De nuevo, un gran abrazo!
I do hope all the work has not been lost. I cannot believe Duolingo would be so unfriendly. It has been a great experience, a pity it ends but at least the people who want their texts should be allowed to get them back.
Completamente de acuerdo con esta propuesta. Hay mucho trabajo detrás de esas traducciones.
Gracias, Liquirba, sé que la mayor parte de la gente que ha participado en Inmersión lo ha hecho con todo el cariño y que ha dedicado mucho esfuerzo y tiempo a ello. :)
:) Hola Ana. Es lo mínimo que se le puede pedir a esta plataforma (que dejo de nombrar) por los esfuerzos que gente, como la que supísteis reunir y coordinar personas como tú, hizo compartiendo su tiempo y buen hacer. --- Un saludo amiga.
Apoyo totalmente la iniciativa, todos hemos trabajado mucho! I totally support thist initiative. We all have worked a lot!
I support this idea. It would be very good if it were still possible to do so. I hope that at least they have saved the database with the translations that have been made, because most of them are very good. Regards
Gracias por tu apoyo, Isidro. Ha sido un placer compartir mucho tiempo de traducción contigo que ahora desearia que hubiese sido más. De cualquier modo, te deseo todo lo mejor y espero que podamos coincidir en el futuro. Un abrazo!
I too have at least as many articles but I had the Duo translation pages bookmarked not the articles, so it would take me some time to track them down again. Then there are all the articles I worked on with others, translations of complete books, all currently lost. I sincerely hope that we do at least get access to these restored to us.
Quite right, not only articles but entire books... I do not think they are getting the whole picture of what a huge amount of work has been lost. :(
Me temo que no, Lilly, por desgracia. Creo que no se debe tanto al hecho de Inmersión pueda ocupar más o menos espacio o necesitar más o menos esfuerzo técnico y de desarrollo. Creo que se debe sobre todo a insalvables aspectos de tipo legal principalmente. Pero todo ello no tiene por qué suponer que todos estos años de traducción se tiren al cubo de la basura. Me rompe el corazón pensar que todo el trabajo (que hemos hecho, ya sea bueno o malo, válido o no, y que ciertamente hemos hecho con todo el cariño) es inútil, vano y puede ser despreciado y descartado. Yo también te echaré de menos, Lilli! Ha sido un honor traducir a tu lado.
What a wonderful Duolingo bilingual library all these translations would create, and what a resource for continual learning!
That is an excellent point. I hope that if you do manage to retrieve your work, you will consider at least posting these on a website so other language learners can benefit. That would really keep the old spirit of Duolingo alive!
Thanks, DaughterofAlbion! It seems as we are preaching in the desert, though. :((
Have lingots, amigo. I agree, if Duolingo doesn't have resources for people to keep translating, at least let them view their recent work. There's several years of hard work in there.
Thanks a lot for your support, AyyWazzup! (And for lingots ;)... I should ask if I can exchange them somewhere before going away from Duo :DD)
Both, I guess. I am swimming in lingots. Get the picture ... like in American Beauty but with lingots instead of petals :)) Well, no, nothing to do with it. But it is really funny to turn into a child and have fun with little things.
Hahaha! What a vision :-)) You're right though, it does everybody good to have fun with silly little things :-))
Oh, hahaha! now it's 5155 but about to be less ..... cackles evilly :-)))
Apoyo totalmente la iniciativa de Ana. Hay mucho trabajo en esas traducciones.
Gracias. Pilar. Gracias por tu colaboración en tantas traducciones y tu paciencia conmigo :))
Gracias, Libby! Hemos compartido mucho y muy bueno. Es muy descorazonador pensar que esos buenos tiempos no volverán...al menos en un futuro cercano. Un abrazote, compañera!
Excelente idea Ana !!
Apoyo tu iniciativa Letra a ....... realmente me duele pensar en que no podamos continuar con tarea tan interesante y realizada con cariño y compañerismo. Saludos. Laura
Buena iniciativa, yo no he traducido demasiado, pero reconozco el esfuerzo y tiempo de muchos de vosotros. Además hay muy buenas traducciones que no desmerecen en nada a las profesionales, me refiero aquellos y aquellas que cobran por ello. ¡Un saludo fuerte para todos! :))))))))))))))))))))))))
Gracias a ti, por encabezar esta protesta, :))))))))))))))))))))))), no me había dado cuenta de la situación hasta que habéis empezado a hacerla más trascendente, gracias por hacernos pensar. Mi postura era más bien conformista en principio, pero si es verdad que el esfuerzo y el tiempo han merecido la pena y que también es verdad que hemos aprendido y que nos gustaría seguir aprendiendo de la misma forma. ¡Gracias de nuevo! :))))))))))))))))))))))
Apoyo totalmente tu sugerencia Ana. Hay mucho trabajo y esfuerzo detrás de esas traducciones. Un abrazo compi.
Good idea! It would be like having annotated texts that would allow you to read and access the translation as needed.
Actually, having read Luis' more detailed answers on Reddit, I now suspect that the data has been deleted in the server reconfiguration and may actually be impossible to retrieve. I agree however, that it is discourteous to fail to respond to this polite and reasonable request.
I think that the genuine users of immersion are suffering for having been too quiet in the past: we accepted the business decision that further development of immersion was uneconomic, and just got on with using what we had. This left the loudest noise on the forums about immersion as either (I) complaints about flaws and requests for improvements (ii) complaints about the nuisance of users who were gaming the system for XP.
Thus a quick perusal of the forum topics would leave Luis with (i) the false impression that as it stands, immersion was considered unsatisfactory/unusable by serious users and (ii) the genuine impression that the ability to amass XP simply by butchering pages was angering those who are interested in the competitive game aspects of Duolingo.
I notice that Luis' own main Duolingo tree is Spanish, and I believe that Spanish immersion has particularly high levels of vandal/nuisance activity. If that is the version of immersion that he has personally experienced, and he has made the assumption that the other language communities are the same, then he may genuinely have been completely unaware of the quality of work that was going on.
If that hypothesis is correct, then Duolingo's actions make more sense. They would be based on the false premises that
(i) nothing of value was being produced (and therefore there was no concept of "works people would want to preserve" )
(ii) the minority of Duolingo users currently active in immersion were the would-be cheats who are neither interested in learning a language nor playing the game fairly. If the company felt that such people were a portion of the community that they could afford to annoy and lose, in the interests of improving the speed and response times of the site for the rest, then this too is a reasonable reaction.
The genuine users of immersion, and the results of their happy labours, have gone unnoticed.
I said at the beginning that I fear the reason Duolingo has not agreed to the request to reopen immersion is that its reconfiguration means that this is not technically possible.
My hope is that the silence does not represent contempt and disregard, but lack of knowledge. If Luis has responded to this request by inquiring into the possibility of retrieving the translations from backups, he may not yet know whether or not this can be done.
Considering some of the more intemperate reactions about the loss of immersion, I think it understandable that he might be wary of saying anything that holds out a false hope, in case it transpires that he is unable to deliver.
If Luis' statements about his dreams and hopes and disappointment over immersion mean anything, then I think he would do this.
I hope that the above interpretation is correct. I hope.
Thanks for sharing your right analysis with us, DaughterofAlbion. I share your opinion. Nevertheless, I want to add some different and possible scenarios:
(i) File deleting (if this has happened with Immersion texts) could never have been an unconscious action. This implies a huge lack of respect in itself, no matter the quality of the lost work. If this is the case, as soon as financed translations were removed, no one halted to have a look backwards. I am a programmer: let me tell you that there is always a way to make docs available again for users for download.
(ii) Gamification is the base of Duolingo methodology from the very beginning. They wanted it that way. I expressed my concern about it so many times. Even though I know I had a very high tier in Immersion, I always defended that the abolition of tiers would be a very positive way to get rid of every kind of nuisance, cheaters and trolls. Without no reward (but knowledge) for the work made, this feature would have lacked any kind of interest for those who were just competing for EXP's and tiers. I assume we would have dropped to the 0.01% but we all would have gained quality. And, who knows how many people would have been attired by the improved quality (i.e. companies looking for quality translations).
(iii) The manner all this "Immersion crisis" has been handled, let me suppose that there has never been a serious analysis about the pros and cons. Just a "could-not-care-less" attitude. Never mind how we want to put it: it is not that Immersion was used by just a handfull of users, but that Immersion could never be used on phones and tablets because of an error that made it impossible to translate on a tablet, with the text jumping to the beginning everytime you inserted a sentence or made an edition and thus losing sight of the original text with which compare. Only PC and Mac users could taste it. As far as I know 99% of users who could taste it using a computer, ended up loving it, with the remaining 1% divided among those who 1) didn't had time enough 2) couldn't stand bearing inmature users having fun destroying their work 3) just didn't find it so worthy.
Edition to add:
Trolls and inmature users were not an endemic problem of Immersion -they are the problem of whole Duolingo (just have a look at sentence forums. I have been a volunteer for the Italian for Spanish speakers course and I cannot tell about the amount of offenses, curses and hate messages we receive in the incubator everyday (as comments to sentences). Maybe we have to leave trolls out of the equation.
I was never implying that the trolls are not everywhere. They are clearly visible on the sentence threads as well as the forums (despite the active measures taken by our volunteer moderators).
Nor did I mean that this was seen as a "method of removing trolls". Just that if the 0.05% who use immersion were misidentified as being "trolls", then a decision that this was a user demographic that it was acceptable to the administration to annoy and lose makes some sense.
I also agree that any loss of data could not have been accidental. But I think the decision that it could be discarded may have been made without looking at what it consisted (based on mistaken assumptions).
This is the reddit explanation: https://www.reddit.com/r/duolingo/comments/5pr3sv/i_am_luis_von_ahn_ceo_and_cofounder_of_duolingo/ As a programmer, what is your opinion of its implications for the feasibility of data retrieval?
From my point of view, a rather simple SQL query to the database could create a list of the texts 100% translated by pair of languages (origin and target language).
Using the same Immersion texts list template they would be available. Clicking on each one, only one button would be required: Download the translation. This button was already available and it generated a .txt file containing both texts: original one and translated one.
Or we could be offered the "Revision Mode" so that we could print every text in a PDF format.
Please note, I do not imply is it just so simple. I have no idea about the actual architecture of the Immersion section. But it is all there, that architecture exists, so the main thing is to limit its functions to just the "download the text" feature.
But they would need to assign this work to one or two developers and they are all too busy at the moment
I agree with you, Letra_a! According my experience with SQL's queries, DWH, having a look at the Duo's website, I'm sure that it is possible to export the texts!!!!!
Well, yes. I expressed it wrong. Blame it on my English! :)) My intention was to add other points of view and shades to the items exposed. I think I understood well your analysis and was not implying any of your points were wrong. :))
I have modified my first comment, trying to express it better. I hope not to have messed it further :)))
It seems the tiny group of 50,000 who used immersion is expendable and can be ignored, even if we are only asking to retrieve our work of years.
The silent answer to our petition is a great huge of respect, in my opinion.
I confess I have never been treated in such offensive way anywhere.
After a week, still no answer from the heights. I would have liked any kind of answer. It would be really appreciated that Duolingo have told us how to tell the archive reference from the URL string, so that we could guess which files to download, completed or not. I have sometimes not received the notification about a text 100% translated. Without the reference, nothing can be done.
I would like to ask again to Duolingo if we will be granted an access to download our work. An answer to this question would be much appreciated. Please, have mercy!
Ana, perhaps this is a lost battle, I do not mean to abandon it, but, it seems for me that what's translated could be very important for Duo, as a very big translations database from and to many languages, hopefully is not on sale ......... (and we do not know, of course).