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https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

What to change / optimize in my Portuguese learning process. Shall I switch to Spanish?

Hello all,

Question to https://www.duolingo.com/comment/20310314$comment_id=20450639:
Do you think that the Futurelearn.com Spanish beginner 1-6 series (4 weeks x 6 courses = 24 weeks = 6 months) could be learned alone without DuoLingo tree and Memrise Basic Spanish / Spanish 1-7 courses, just to get the focus to speaking and real-world context (story telling) scenarios?

I have no pre-existing basic experience with Spanish or any other Romance language like French.


Since end of October I am enrolled in DuoLingo Portuguese (~3 months, ~21% progress), alltogether with several Memrise, 50languages.com (100 days) courses, which I do all in parallel (and where I also have some progress: Memrise PT1 finished, PT BR Basic to be finished soon).
DuoLingo course progress user script tells me that I may finish the tree in Q1/2018 (~1 year) :-)

Recently I have also found "Ponto de Encontro: Portuguese as a World Language / 1st and 2nd editions, audio + text (online, free), and I have not started it.
.
.
But all this DuoLingo PT vocabulary:

  • I simply can NOT use to start with conversations from day 1,
  • way out of context / non-story telling
  • kinda weird (non phrased) sentence translations
  • fixed skill order in the tree, non-selectable interesting skills (or being able to skip some not so important skills along the tree)

  • and now even Memrises (DuoLingo PT BR course) mass vocabulary review >=100 words / day (bulk learning new words = words come back in 3/4/5/12h/1d review intervals)

seems to be giving me a hard time on the long run taking the courses :-(

I feel like I make almost zero progress...when I compare my current progress to other concepts like "speak from day 1, blogs fluently in 3 months books, BliuBliu 30 day language challenge, etc....".

I would probably not be able to hold a (very basic) conversation...so this is all for nothing ;)
.
.
Next 3 verbs/adverbs/adjectives DuoLingo skills are going (again) to take ages (like Present 1 verbs) as there is a mass of words to learn / remember, repeat and over repeat on Memrise- DuoLingo (PT) course.
Honestly I would need at least ~1+ weeks to review all latest 3++ tree finished skills before, where I did some bulk words learning the past days.
So there is kinda a hard stop in the learning again...the more I progress forward, the more the conversation challenge moves to nirvana.

More threads / including replies what is going on and how difficult it actually is to find someones way:


I feel like I need to change or further improve something with my language learning, find a new intermediate way which pushes me better forward, with real focus on didactical teaching (speaking), like www.language101.com (Spanish, French, but not Portuguese available) suggests it.

Lingvist is not Portuguese ready at the moment (but soon).
BliuBliu needs at least intermediate vocabulary knowledge (for understanding the reading+fast native audio hearing).
Other resources like FSI Basic/Fast/Headstart: http://www.fsi-language-courses.net/ with it's older material are probably not really meant for self-studying alone a language.

The blog "best Language exchange sites": https://lingua.ly/blog/best-language-exchange-sites/ also listed an university where you could learn Spanish (free), but, of course, not Portuguese Brazil.

Shall I follow this blog http://www.lingholic.com/category/self-study/ advice and get Assimil / Teach yourself courses?
Or maybe try "Rocket Language Portuguese" (comparision matrix): http://www.languagesoftware.net/portuguese.html
.
.
So, what to do?

The better concept would have been, like I read all the time, to go further with Portuguese language, move to the intermediate level and start speaking it before mixing PT<->ESP or doing both in parallel.
Of course switching to Spanish will kill my Portuguese Brazil pronunciation started learning!! :-)

At my local city I can only enroll in Spanish VHS courses - the PT BR courses (with fixed start/timelines) are only available in Nuremberg, so more far away (time, travel costs).
It is not that easy to just jump into those (running A1) PT classes from today to tomorrow.

Any suggestions? :-)
Have other Portuguese / Spanish learners experienced the same issues?


BTW: The (Kitesurfing) wind spots for the next months seem to be - according to www.bluebirdkite.de and bstoked https://www.bstoked.net/locations/map/#a_aid=1_bid=11110007 - located in South America: Costa Rica, Panama and Colombia :-)
Brazil with >=80% comes later in the map in a view months.

Another thread "Duolingo experience after a year"- my posting "searching for opportunities / I kinda need a brake (with job) from Germany": https://www.duolingo.com/comment/19254758$comment_id=19260982

Thanks.

Thomas

January 25, 2017

37 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/piguy3

One comment I've read on a language learning site is it's easy to get carried away finding "better and better" (probably not, really) resources — and then starting over from the beginning in each one, thereby making limited progress overall.

I think you can learn Portuguese from Duolingo. I think you can learn it from a textbook. I think you can learn it from watching YouTube videos.

I know that individual lesson lengths vary, but I got to level 9 in Ukrainian in less than 12 hours having zero previous experience with the language. To be honest I suspect you're stressing yourself out unnecessarily. These are pretty long posts you're finding time to compose. Put that time towards doing some more lessons in the tree (or whatever your chosen method winds up being), and I really do think things will work themselves out. Why don't you try mixing things up a little? Just go through a handful of skills fast. Don't worry about mastering things or getting all the vocab down. Duolingo isn't really set up to have you do that the first time through, anyway. Just see if you can kind of get a little rhythm. A lot of Portuguese vocab is really, really easy for someone who speaks English. Granted, it's not the most basic vocab where this applies, but I bet you'll see some of it in an adjectives or adverbs skill. It looks like it would do you good to see that it's not always going to be as hard as it is right now.

Portuguese isn't a super subtle or nuanced language, but it does have some less-than-completely intuitive phonetics. That's one reason I'd encourage you if you're going to be doing Duo-centric things to focus on the tree instead of the Memrise course. You need to be hearing full sentences to get used to the sound structure. I assume Memrise doesn't have that. There are tons of YouTube videos in Brazilian Portuguese. Sometimes I watch this channel. It's an American guy who's helping Brazilians learn English. Because you'd know what he's talking about it might be easier to follow the Portuguese, and his accent could be like a stepping stone. Or just look around for something that gets you hearing the language. I wouldn't worry so much about useful phrases. Boa tarde / boa noite / obrigado don't take too long. And "para" covers way more direction-oriented stuff than it has any right to.

Yes, college classes in both Portuguese and Spanish are taught in those language from the get-go. I took both. If you have access to such a class in Spanish but not Portuguese, I could see that as motivation for switching (although if it'd only be an hour a week or some such, maybe less so; there are a lot more ways to hear lots of Portuguese now than when I was in college). Speaking one will make it unbelievably easier to learn the other, but if you have specific reasons for Portuguese, obviously that comes into consideration. I do think it would be quite hard to not confuse them if you were trying to learn them at the same time.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

At least I can read and understand your English text as a non-native, so there is hope :-)
Is there maybe some Kitesurfing (warm weather, wind) and/or IT Java jobs in Australia next months? :-) :-)

I admit that I once tried the skills Occupations and Household on DuoLingo's Android app (Bluestacks emulator) and later repeated on DuoLingo web.

After re-learning the words on Memrise DL PT course it just got to my attention that I could not remember those words very well, especially the next day (too many outstanding reviews, so hard to do non-level / global course reviews at the moment).


DuoLingo: Spaced repetition for unfinished skill / Memrise: How to do unfinished level word review: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/20462790

Sorry, another longer thread. I am trying to get the big picture :-)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lorel90

I am not sure what to tell you. Why are you learning Portuguese? Why Spanish? Certainly more people speak Spanish than Portuguese, but that is not a good reason to switch, I learn German, not a very "useful" or easy language. You can experiment with Spanish for a week or so and see how you like it. There are a lot of Spanish speakers in Germany and Germans learning Spanish, because they plan to retire in Spain. If you take Spanish check out Benny Lewis' new book, Hacking Language Spanish.

About optimizing the learning process, of course it is always a good idea. I can tell you that Duolingo is good, because it makes you do it every day, but I think it cannot be the core of the program, "Man braucht mehr Grammatik und nützliche Phrasen." Please let us know your decision.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CarloMarti17

I am Brazilian, and can definitely help you with Portuguese! Do you need to improve your conversation skills?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

Oi Carlo,

obrigado pela sua oferta.

PT: "Melhorar" é engraçado ... Eu teria que começar primeiro falando, já que não segui a regra superior # 5 "falar desde o primeiro dia".

EN: "Improve" is funny....firstly I would even have to start speaking as I had not followed the top #5 rule "speak from day 1".

Muitos cumprimentos da Alemanha


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

On Shannon's blog I read about another online French/Spanish / English/German scripted?? teaching opportunity (again no Portuguese ;) ) - Lingoda: http://eurolinguiste.com/learn-language-online-lingoda-review/


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

I know, this will not be the answer to all of my questions and existing problems, but I am glad that I was able to register for a (sponsored) premium membership on Mondly www.mondlylanguages.com.

With Mondly I additionally have at least got now a chance (to all the material above and I may find further) to use even more:

  • 14 (voice) conversation practice module lessons
  • (Voice) conversational chat bot - also on Android app (would need a smartphone first ;) )
  • hope to see some useful phrases
  • hope to see some daily life lessons (which DuoLingo lacks so much)
  • Mondly grammar 1-3 topic excercises (e.g strengthen what I learn before from books, DuoLingo tips & notes, other online courses, etc.)
  • even more fun and changing 365 daily + weekly lessons

I had tested Mondly a short time before last year after reading a earlier blogs announcement from Alexandru on Hackingportuguese http://hackingportuguese.com/2013/05/review-duolingo/ on March 4, 2015 at 3:40 pm:
"3 years ago we started creating a better Pimsleur. And a better Rosetta Stone.
Ingredients: Clear native voices, words and phrases inspired from a traveler’s phrasebook and a game-like fun and addictive experience.
Instead of grammar based topics – teach instantly useful topics like Greetings, Getting around, Eating out or Sweet romantic talk.
Take the learner by the hand, from zero to conversational level and always focus on speaking the language.
And most of all, do what Dr. Pimsleur could never do back in the seventies – use the amazing power available in our mobile devices to record, interpret and even mix the learners voice with the native speakers voice to create new learning experiences that would stick in the learners mind forever. 3 years later Mondly is a reality in 22 languages – and this 30 second preview says more than I ever can:
http://youtu.be/W_ER5mYB3Cs"

but had found some early "personal turn offs" after some very quick evaluation in the way Mondly:

  • a) does not allow peaking for all sentence words (hints like DuoLingo)
  • b) introduces new words

  • c) playing audio in the L2 target language BEFORE you have finished the word assignment/finished sentence translation:
    This is like giving the translation answer solution - like RosettaStones does it - before you have even finished the excercise. This gave me "???" and I really have to recheck this point (DuoLingo audio play is fine, DuoLingo reverse tree enhancer is fine)

  • d) use quite often word tapping on PC/web (like DuoLingo mobile app):
    My Memrise 50languages.com course is no different in that not using "typing", but giving strong (multiple-choice) sentence selection (showing the solutions) and therefore easier answer choices. This is IMHO not the best for practicing a word/sentence construction RECALL.

  • ...

I will see how to play around with it - Mondly is as gamified as DuoLingo is, so this is good to do each day a little bit - when I am now able to access all Mondly's 21 topics/skills.

There are yet some evaluation threads about Mondly on DuoLingo discussion forums...

Maybe I can write Alexeandru what I see and think and what my suggestions for further user customization / software improvements are.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

Mondly: 14 (voice) conversation practice module lessons

The Mondly Premium shop now says:

  • 55 conversation modules (probably because of new topics; however, I have not tried to re-count for myself)

  • 5000 words and phrases

  • 1000 lessons and conversations

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/piguy3

Have you used Mondly any more? By happenstance I signed up a last night after seeing it mentioned again. My major first impression was too much clicking :(


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

Good news!

I finally figured out, how to skip (22) not so important skills (to me) in a DuoLingo tree at my 29% progress mark (saw a tip in a thread recently) and focus on random 21 more/most important grammar (verb tense) skills first without having to go skill by skill - in a fixed order (unlocking) - down in my tree ;)

Hopefully, with these 21 more difficult / advanced skills, combined with Mondly Grammar 1-3 modules (and 1-2 books), I finally could get the relevant Portuguse language boost, which I was looking for (putting speaking aside) here and there https://www.duolingo.com/comment/20736135.

The Memrise PT BR Basic last two verb levels already introduced some more advanced (will/be going to, should, must, etc.) stuff - so I really want to catch up on DuoLingo.

I guess it might help me to save time NOT having to learn the other 22 skills x ~10 lessons x 7 words = ~1.470 words first in a very strict fixed tree order.....and for my own motivation.
I can also concentrate on the above 21 grammar skills on Memrise PT BR levels in parallel.

I will see if the 21 random skills / lessons >29% more down the tree (1/2, 3/4, etc.) will heavily depend on the other 22 previous (left out) skill vocabulary in excercises, if these words have not been learned first....just want to give it a try...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/piguy3

You wanted to get to subjunctive that bad? ;)

You just get the direct link right? If you want to do any of the skills in the middle of the batch you've jumped, I should be able to help.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

Hey Adam,

just wanted to let you know that I finally have reached the "Subjunctive Present" skill from top to down (with some levels pre-learned on the DuoLingo PT Memrise course) in my 81% completed Portuguese tree ;)

BTW: I have got my old user scripts "Course progress, next level" bars, tree trim, DuoTweak and Awstats (even on my profile site) back working with the duo.old_web_url_whitelist=["^.+"]; workaround which was posted in the other threads a few days ago.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/piguy3

Parabens! Como vai o processo de aprendizagem em geral?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

In English: Mondly languages added 19 new topics to their tree: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/23524002

In (native) German: "Mondly Languages" hat 19 neue Themen zu Ihrem Baum hinzugefügt und ist für viele DE Ausgangssprachen verfügbar: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/23527077


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

Found an interesting Spanish thread "Duolingo Spanish in 80 Days" from 2013 with many comments: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/1367226


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

I typed some comparisions (first draft) about "Duo being easy or hard" in comparision to other portals in this thread https://www.duolingo.com/comment/24045552. Before mods delete the down-voted thread I better copy my written points to my own thread:

  • Duo Web interface and writing is harder (accepting multiple alternative answers) than mobile apps tapping excercises.

  • Not all new Duo words have assigned pictures in comparision to www.languagecourse.net vocabulary trainer VT

  • "Mondly languages" uses most of the time tapping excercises, even on the web.

  • If you have to translate on Mondly into the L2 target language, usually there is audio first, after which you can write/build you sentence word blocks.
    This is much easier as on Duo web.
    I do not remember that the Duo mobile apps would first read out load the sentence.
    You can first try to translate. That is good.
    That makes much more sense to me (I don't like to hear L2 audio before translating).

  • The big con of Duo is that it quite often just throws in new words in a sentence (in yellow if you are lucky).
    Memrise in comparision uses a 6 step flower planting concept.
    So you will have seen the word and it's definition up to 6 times, until you have "learned it".
    With DuoLingo you have to use the hint on the very first new word occurrence to lookup it's definition, if it was not a picture excercise first.

  • Memrise (web) focuses word reviews (watering) on L2 target language and typing (instead of L1 English or German translations in your native language) if you install the right user scripts from Cooljingle.
    You can completely disable multiple-choice and audio excercises for reviews.
    My Duo EN-PT forward tree focus too much on L1 English translations. I am not sure about the exact ratio. It may have improved a little bit on the new Duo (Scala) portal (different algorithm???)?

  • 50languages uses native recorded MP3 audio.
    They use longer real context sentences.
    Native recorded audio is better understandable than TTS.
    Mondly recorded Portuguese audio sounds much better to me than only TTS.
    I once started the 50languages Portuguese Brazil course on Memrise - with the TTS Audio-Provider plugin - as not every (longer) sentence got uploaded (e.g Forvo) audio recordings by the Memrise user course creator.

  • Digital publishing (DP) I already wrote in 1-2 threads about DP and my short (French) impression which I may link later, if I re-find them again.
    Even the "Sprachkurs 1 CD" of French is IMHO much more difficult in the beginning lessons as Mondly, Memrise, DuoLingo, 50languages, vocabulary trainer VT alltogether.
    They do not seem to concentrate with DP on teaching single words first.
    They use "two person dialogs" and context right away, that includes conjugated verb forms.
    "Fill in the blank excercises" are quite (too) difficult (for me) if you start with an language from zero.
    I would have to right click on each word (multiple times) in a sentence and check all their definitions.
    I can't efficiently learn new basic words with that concept that easily. I have to put that back....


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

Linking thread "Do polyglots tell the truth when they say that anyone can be proficient in a language within a year?": https://www.duolingo.com/comment/22161915/Do-polyglots-tell-the-truth-when-they-say-that-anyone-can-be-proficient-in-a-language-within-a-year


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

Adam had answered me (thanks for that!) about possible Portuguese tree updates and posted a link in one my (very much) older "100 days streak Portuguese / Memrise 1.000.000 points" thread https://www.duolingo.com/comment/20736135$comment_id=21042814 about this:

"The content of duolingo courses. A ''short'' summary (by BIGBANG-O)": https://www.duolingo.com/comment/17443899
which includes "A summary about the length of duolingo courses": https://www.duolingo.com/comment/17222395


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

Hi all,

can't believe that ~1 year is already over and I finally have completed my forward EN-PT tree a few days ago ;)

Memrise course PT6 is almost finished and PT7 has been already started for 8 levels....
.
.
I can honestly say that typing (RECALLING) full sentences for the offical PT 1-7 courses on the Memrise web portal in the target language Portuguese sometimes drives me crazy with Cooljingle's "all typing" user script, where multiple-choice exercises are completely turned off.

I do NOT review the completed PT1-5 courses as often as it should be; you quickly forget stuff if you do not review your backlog daily / weekly.


"Any tips for my reverse trees for my 1st Romance Portuguese language / studying and comparing grammar?" https://www.duolingo.com/comment/25339613

Therefore I wanted to ask for help and tips from experienced DuoLingoists.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

Linking thread "Current vocabulary sizes of most courses in Duolingo" (script analysis by FieryCat): https://www.duolingo.com/comment/24527279


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

Linking thread "Current vocabulary sizes of most courses in Duolingo - Update after 8 months" (script analysis by Caralos and FieryCat): https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/27444256


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

Linking thread "Will DuoLingo prepare for a trip in 2 weeks? Thoughts, experiences, suggestions, resources to use": https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/25364289/Will-DuoLingo-prepare-for-a-trip-in-2-weeks-Thoughts-experiences-suggestions-resources-to-use


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

"(Late) Celebration of 600 days streak, finished Portuguese tree two times, personal background about me": https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/28094594


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

Quote Usagiboy7:
There is the reverse course.
I am always curious if people plan to do reverse and ladder trees
Source: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29156220$comment_id=29165506

As you probably all know it, and it IMHO still applies to the "crown update" in 2018 very well:

Starting a course from French/Spanish/Portuguese/German on the web portal = writing / translating into French/Spanish/Portuguese/German (on the right hand side) on a higher (better) ratio even on lower crown L0-L2 (L3) levels

(My) Tips and audio tricks for reverse and laddering trees

How do you do a reverse tree / The reverse tree helps - how to be able to listen to the target language audio:
- https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29266026$comment_id=29267079
- https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29262469$comment_id=29266698


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

I found an interesting blog article:

10,000 hours to become an expert rule, comparing four different language learning scenarios: https://drsaraheaton.wordpress.com/2011/02/20/how-long-does-it-take-to-learn-a-new-language/

"How long does it take to become fluent in another language?"

vs

"How do I get my 10,000 hours of study and practice to become fluent in a new language?"

I better link it right now here before not finding it again ;)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

Quote Spiceyokooko: He said he did 70 hours of practice
Source: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29854685$comment_id=29857075

Quote TonyElPescador:
It also says nothing if he went through the tree at at Crown Level 1....
I would surmise the former that he stayed at Level 1 which, IMO, is BS.
Source: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29854685$comment_id=29857275

This is my text from the thread "Letter to David Freedman / The Atlantic / Essay: Duolingo" https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29854685$comment_id=29858939

I can not exactly agree on this point.

I will give you an example how I learned the (some) Portuguese basics, totally from scratch (no previous Spanish skills, no Romance native speaker but German, so there was a ZERO benefit):

  • I completed my EN->PT tree in November 2017 after one year.

  • The first 3-4 months (exactly at that point I started to wonder) have been horrible and I finally noticed at the point that I will go nowhere for the speaking part and learning some useful phrases / seeing interesting sentences quite early in my course
    (there are so many abstract / non-usable skills like "Animals" & more, which I will rarely use in conversations; I also did not like Food skills at this (very) early stage!)

  • In April 2018 I was switched to crowns and some (not many) skills from the first half of my tree were migrated to crown level L2 max ("crown simple" instead of the more interesting "complex conversion rule" which took crown L3 level also for other users intro consideration when migrating trees).

  • Well, at least I had seen the FULL tree (=all of 69 and with the update 91 skills).

  • But I had done so MANY re-strengthen review sessions on the www.Duolingo.com web portal - and on Memrise (web) in parallel (typing, true L1->L2 RECALLS) - that you can not really rate this as any too fast binge learning "level 1 / first tree completition BS" which usually comes with the "mobile tapping apps" into play....I took my time (one year!).

Anyway, my impression was that staff's crown conversion code had somehow failed for the first 40-60% part of my tree as I had reviewed so MANY skills on a daily / weekly basis multiple times over and over again.

No, within my first year and even 6-12 months later I have not reviewed the more difficult verb tense / grammar skills (e.g Subjunctives) from the bottom of the tree on a weekly basis....I definitely should have but Duolingo does not assist me on that quite much....

FYI: I had shifted my SR focus to Memrise for the bottom "vocabulary skills" which words I actually had pre-learned for multiple weeks when I finally finished those skills on Duolingo which turned out to have been a great learning concept to push forward with the tree completion but not having a too hard time with the recalling and typing on the web portal.

..(..)..

Talking about skill completion vs crowns L1 bu..s..t:

This "BS" may fit better, when people go directly from L1->L5 for each single skill, with almost no appropriate spacing, without ever pushing forward in their skill tree and when those learners never try to get / see the big picture of all grammar (might be different for languages like Irish, Welsh, Russian, Czech,...).

Nowadays people reach their language level 25 @ 30,000XP with all that L1->L5 crown stuff (incl. test-outs) and they have not even completed their full tree!

Like your example where you say that this would map roughly to 15-20% total tree progress after several months.

..(...)..

I have to admit that the Portuguese course provides very good html formatted "tips and notes".

In June 2018 the EN->PT tree got an update from 69 skills (406 lessons) to 91 skills and I have re-completed several of the converted skills (some with the old "lesson test-out", some with L0 crown sessions = sequential lessons).
There are 72-74 grammar notes available on the web portal / Duome.eu which really is just great!

Newly added Portuguese skills are reorganizations of grammar skills and splitting the previous grammar skills.
Actually there are dedicated grammar skills, no vocabulary skill c..p like EN->SP or French tree8+12 because the tree layout design (like French tree3) is superb!


If you want to learn a language, you can not only stick to the first skills and level them all up to the highest L5 level (yes, it will depend on the language, but the spaced repetition is most likely the problem with that approach), but you also have to learn things like Subjunctives (there are four Subj. skills in the PT course!), conditionals, modals, present perfect, 2x future, etc.

New staff courses (long trees with 119/156 skills) like French tree8+12 even fail to add the former 26+ dedicated grammar skills (Subjunctive Past, Future,...) from the very well made contributor tree3 which discovers a broader range.

Proper spaced repetition (SR) and daily/weekly reviews, where Duolingo almost completely fails for the RECALLING part (where Memrise web succeeds with Cooljingle's "all typing" Tampermonkey userscript), is IMHO much more important in the first 6-12 months.

..(...)..

Isn't Duo's highest L5 crown level PRACTICE button and code broken anyways (giving easy low crown exercises, pictures, short sentences, etc.)?!?
That seems to be also the case for the L4 lessons/crown sessions (miss of high ratio of L1->L2 target translation directions, still using picture exercises, "fill the word into the blank" challenges with 1-4 multiple-choice selections) for my first four Portuguese skills!!

No Duolingo, with all that kiddie stuff this is not how you are going to push a serious learner into their target language, force learners into writing/typing, RECALLING and building more complex sentences!

Thankfully it is getting better here after two years and the Portuguese->German reverse tree is just great.

For some reason I magically still can't test out most checkpoints and all 91 skills of my EN->PT course with the into placement test on the web as I stumble here and there across challenging sentences...so there still is plenty of material given even after two years ;)

Thankfully Duolingo is not getting too boring after 1-2 years with all the reactivated sentences which have been previously suspended 3-4+ years or even 5-6 years ago (high user error rates because of difficulty).

But it takes many more hours than only 70h or 3-4 months to get to the point where you will actually recognize that Duolingo brings also up also brings up some useful sentences to learn (which is especially true for my PT->DE reverse tree!).

Recently I am stumbling across more and more new interesting sentences (no sentence discussion comments started) in my EN->PT course...it looks like to me that contributors are adding more...and they have not been put together randomly with words by a robot.

I am very thankful to the contributors of the two Portuguese trees for all their massive work they have put into and I have heard that there even is a new A/B tree for the PT->EN course rolled out (108 skills) which I can get in a "private browser window (no activity tracking)" to play around with the intro placement and checkpoint/skill tests".

My 2cents

Best regards / Viele Grüße aus Deutschland


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

[WARNING] Mondly web portal stopped working and redirects to mobile apps!: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/29990410


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

News

Mondly Website / tested: Thursday 18 April 2019 (GMT+1)

What a nice surprise. Was für eine nette Überraschung.

The Mondly www.mondly.com website (Redirect to https://app.mondly.com/home) is back.

Die Mondly Website ist zurück und kann wieder aufgerufen werden.
Lessons werde ich in 2-3 Browser Versionen im Laufe des Tages mal versuchen.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

Update:
For Portofan's tip "Oi, Brazil" Portuguese book (VHS e.g works with it) I also added my previous thread "Ein erster Schritt zum Sprachenlernen, aber ein Großer für die Motivation: Memrise 500.000 Punkte (German), it looks like I already wrote about it a little bit: https://de.duolingo.com/comment/19892868.

EN:
Some interactive course including written lessons/tests at the end of each section would have been phenomenal....it looks like there is not much selection available.
At least the VHS school is using the "Oi Brazil" book for teaching.
I thought I could keep going with the foundation and save travel time / money only for learning the first basics.... I almost can't believe that VHS students will have to talk since day 1, do they really have to?

DE:
Irgendein interaktiver Kurs incl. schriftlicher Lektionen/Tests am Ende eines jeden Abschnitts wäre wohl genial gewesen...gibt dann wohl doch nicht so die große Auswahl.
Zumindest setzt die VHS Schule das "Oi Brazil" Buch ein.
Ich dachte ich komme ggf. selbst erst einmal gut mit den Grundlagen voran und spare mir bsw. Wegezeit/Reisekosten/Kurskosten für das Erlernen der 0815 Basics....

Ich kann kaum glauben dass VHS Studenten bei 2x45Min. ab dem 1. Tag sprechen werden / müssen , ohne dass die Basics sitzen?
Ist das wirklich so?
Sinnvoll wäre es ja schon bei Übungen, ähnlich dem FSI Kurs Material Drill in der Klasse mit Lehrer :-)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

Some update on my language learning:
Wow, my text got pretty long. I will see if I can further split it to make it more readable. I am open for any suggestions! :-)

Quote anthonytera from thread "Best way to complete a tree?" https://www.duolingo.com/comment/23105305$comment_id=23115499: "I'll definitely start using memrise more, but what do you use? And how has it helped you (can you read, write, speak in the target language?)"

Honestly, that is quite difficult to say for me.
For sure I am quite quite far away from "fluent in 30/90 days" Polyglot courses, books or challenges. I probably simply missed to following one of the first 5 rules: "Try to speak from day 1" (and I would have no clue how I can acomplish that in Germany).

I am just learning (since ~8 months) Portuguese completely from scratch.
Started it on DuoLingo, followed by 50languages.com (including native recorded MP3), added Memrise DuoLingo PT, Memrise PT Basic BR, Memrise PT BR 1,2,3,...5,...

I think my personal multiplication factor is somewhere between x3 and x5.
I will see how far I got in about ~1,5 years where this October will be then 1 year :-)

I started my English tree on DuoLingo really just for fun - but I am IMHO pretty advanced / long- term learner in this language since my youth / school / education / IT profession. So this does not count in any way for learning a Romance language.
It would be just fun to find some holes in my English language skill background which I could further improve (there may be some words or phrases on DuoLingo I do not know already).

You know, before 8 months I knew absolutely nothing about Romance languages and Portuguese.

So, what shall I expect??
I do not have set too high (unrealistic) goals like "I want to be able to fluently speak quite soon or know everything about the language in-time".

can you read, write, speak in your target language

I would NOT answer ANY of those questions with yes, not yet.

BTW: Chatting (IRC) for writing (quick typing) has always been great for improving my English for years, even 12+ years ago. So I will probably add this challenge for my Portuguese language target as well.


BTW: Lately I have passed the Memrise 3 million points mark, gained Memonist status and "learned" roughly (probably including some doubles/triples because of multiple PT courses) 3.246 words.
This was my older thread "100days streak in Portuguese/English, personal 240XP day success, Memrise Membrain 1.000.000 points": https://www.duolingo.com/comment/20736135

Most verbs from Memrise "DuoLingo Portuguese" course are there in their basic form, without (person) conjunctions where DuoLingo itself almost seems to teach only the conjugated form of verbs (very rarely the infinitive forms). So they both add well together in each their way...

With all the user scripts I was and am using, I feel have the chance to read and write/translate (recall PT words/phrases/sentences, NOT only remembering the PT words and choosing from multiple-choice the correct EN translation(s)) some (easy) Portuguese.
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I truly believe that Memrise and it's SR (including shorter 4-5h/12h/24h++) intervals helped me to better learn and long-term remember some elementary PT vocabulary, where for some reasons I can not kick myself to regularly review on DuoLingo those learned skills
(probably because on Duo you will not be able to focus on the latest learned / weak words and you have to translate IMHO too much silly crap, including many words from the early beginning of the tree).

The whole spaced repetition (SR) thing is a new one for me....

The offical Memrise PT1-7 courses (see their blog announcement about hacking + sentence translation courses) include some more advanced sentences as 50languages.com (native MP3 recorded, not TTS) actually do.

50Languages (100 days course):
I stopped this Memrise course for a while after learning about 100 words on the Memrise user created course; but now with the Memrise TTS Audio-Provider user script I could re-start/continue that course even not all audio has been added to it by the author.

In comparision:
On DuoLingo not all teached / asked sentences really make sense, the focus is often not teaching "some useful phrases" FOR speaking but often more like auto-throwing some vocabulary together in a sentence by a bot, but that may only be my impression (well, according to some discussion threads on Duo it is not) :-)

I was concentrating earlier on timed practices WITH the DuoLessonsFix user script, which thankfully stopped the timer for each question AND added discussion links to the review lesson panels.
On the new Duo portal code this now does NOT work anymore, so I do not use it very much anymore....if I collected a view XPs to reach my daily goal I am done as I do not want to start it multiple times and fail again.
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What I also do:
Read the sentences aload, either on DuoLingo and Memrise, that is repeating their spoken Portuguese TTS.
On DuoLingo Camilo's "Tree enhancer" user script helps to play Portuguese TTS audio from right hand side EN-PT L2 (target) translations AND nowadays multiple-choice selections.

For www.bliubliu.com text stories and native recorded audio I was not well prepared a view months ago as they miss beginner Portuguese texts (they even alerted me about that fact).
Understanding Portuguese natives speaking fast and fluently: Damn, that is another thing, pretty hard!
My later goal is to add pods and hear recorded user stories from natives.
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The author from www.language101.com is IMHO absolutely right:
Only hearing (not yet learned) Portuguese words / sentences (including the German or English translation) is NOT enough for me (personally).
So even finishing two to three times the complete (100days) 50languages PT MP3s course on walk outdoor, I still can not fully retain the stuff learned (heard) before.
So I will HAVE TO re-learn all the words/sentences on Memrise (including reading the text, playing TTS, repeating TTS and speaking out loud the read text).
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Can I compare all that to real word Portuguese (fast) listening, real stories, people (like the audio CDs you can get with some books), freely create spoken Portuguese, etc.?
Probably not!
I definitely will have to add different material in the future (after learning the vocabulary / grammar stuff).

Will all the above help me to further extend my PT knowledge (from zero)? Probably and hopefully!

Honestly, I do not have the feeling that the exact order or courses/levels/skills teached are really PREPARING you for being able to actively speak QUICKLY the target language :-(

I believe I always have to learn too much vocabulary crap (on DuoLingo, on Memrise, etc.) which I can not use 1:1 in real life, probably never....

Actually I had that feeling quite soon starting the course with all the "milk/bread/eating/food/animal stuff"....so you somehow have to get pass that phase on DuoLingo (however you can't ignore the required skill reviews)....

Normally you will forget stuff you learn but not have to use in real life (in context)....

Some Polyglot blog even wrote about it:
Try to forget the "not sticking" vocabulary (delete the flashcards), you can not use right now or very soon (learned vocabulary used in context).

So I will probably have to look for a native teacher who helps me to put all the previous learned stuff together.

Yes, that is actually my plan:
Try to fit the language basics together myself (without having to pay too much too soon), do my 15++ words/phrase thing per day and finally being able to learn how to put it together at some time from a teacher (or sooner like 1-2x a week in parallel) :-)


I found e.g a new language meeting location in my city in Germany/Nuremberg, where they meet each week and have multi language tables, where you are also allowed to switch.

Do I have the (good) feeling that I already learned (including SR) enough Portuguese from all the above taken courses to give myself a real challenge, visit them and try my best in PT:
Listen to natives, try to follow their conversations AND try to speak myself (as I think and write it English)???
NO, of course not!!! :-)

NO, I have not yet finished PT5, PT 6+7, all available intermediate+advanced+hacking Memrise courses, I have not finished all DuoLingo PT grammar skills, etc.
Therefore I can NOT meet that group yet. I am simply not prepared enough :-)
What a damn excuse, isn't it? :-)
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But it is still true:
Even that Memrise PT1-5 courses teach some basic grammar (include some will/can/was/went, etc. verb tenses including conjunction), I was not successful on DuoLingo to speed up my tree and finish those (important) grammar skills.

I even tried that on DuoLingo with maybe 2-4 skills, but I experienced that the (locked) skills more down the tree always ask me for vocabulary I had not learned, because I wanted to jump over that skills and they are actively using vocabulary from earlier tries teaching new skills (not only in reviews).
Not funny!

For the moment I am way more ahead on Memrise "DuoLingo PT BR" with the levels (=skills) as I am through with my DuoLingo tree by itself, so I would really have to earn some XPs per day/week to get some progression.

And with my latest account migration (=rollout to more users) to the new DuoLingo portal (bad bad idea Luis and team!), I can not even access those (locked) grammar skills further down the tree anymore, as I could have done before with the user scripts.


(Copy and paste from another thread): Oh , by the way, these have been my older threads on DuoLingo, where I struggeled to find an exit from this one-way learning stuff and move either forward for concentrating more on learning grammar (instead of learning bulls.... vocabulary which I do not need right now) OR getting more into the direction to learn only the stuff to be able to actively speak Portuguese:

Somehow it was probably a little bit more fun for me to get those (shorter) Memrise courses PT1/2/3/4 finished, starting PT5 and let DuoLingo "rest" for learning a while, dunno why :-)

Maybe it's the Memrise course dashboard, grasping for points, etc. or the knowledge that Memrise compares their offical courses PT1-3 for A1, PT4-5 for A2 and PT6-7 for B1??!?

I even found some phrasebook and hacking courses for Portuguese and Spanish on Memrise.
One Phrasebook (200 words + sentences) is not yet on Memrise, but the author mentioned the PDF book was created as an AnkiSRS shared deck.
My plan was to ask if it is still available, to be able to re-learn that 200 words and see those words used in multiple nice sentences (context).

This includes an added Spanish user-created course on Memrise from Benny Lewis "Language hacking Spanish", a few user-created courses (some chapters) for the "Oi Brazil" book and 1-2 grammar ("Modern Brazilian Portuguese Grammar (2nd edition)") and collequial books which I have not started yet.

It probably will be a long way, to fight through all the resources, find some new ones yet available (pushing me into the direction I want/need) and finally being able to speak the language, even if you practice it daily.


So, finally getting to the end, what do have others experienced:
Will you be able to read, write, speak in your target language once you have finished your DuoLingo tree?

Did you have - like me - the impression that you want to jump over some skills on DuoLingo and concentrate on others, which you think are more important (e.g grammar, tenses, future, etc.) than others?
Why is the new portal the same as bad with the same design flaws as the old one (but now even without the workaround user scripts)?

I am not sure on that, but probably I may have quit before as my 2nd DuoLingo "skip some PT skills" / "try to focus more on grammar skills" attempts were not working out as I hoped, because of skill tree programming / design flaws, if I had not taking initially the Memrise route.

Opinions? (hehe yes, I already know - this got finally a quite LOOONG text!)

Thomas


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Thomas.Heiss

Endlich habe ich es geschafft, jippie.

Seit heute bin ich ein SHOF Duome.eu Silber-Mitglied mit 730 Tagen :-)
Wünsche allen die hier mitlesen ein schönes Wochenende.

I made it, yeah.
Since today I'm finally a SHOF Duome.eu silver member with 730 days :-)
What a looong learning trip!
Have a happy weekend whoever is still subscribed to my thread and may be reading this.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/piguy3

So are you glad you didn't (as far as I know) switch to Spanish? :)

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