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https://www.duolingo.com/proinsias123

verbal noun pronoun verbal noun

On http://www.focloir.ie/en/dictionary/ei/want ''I don't want to see you ever again'' is translated as nílim ag iarraidh tú a fheiceáil arís go deo.

But am I right in assuming that's wrong, since the is following a progressive type verbal noun? If it is wrong, how would it be correctly translated?

I would guess it is either nílim do d'iarraidh feiceáil or nílim ag iarraidh do d'fheiceáil. Not sure which one makes the most sense.

browsing through focloir, I see what I think is a mistake every now and again, but I wonder if it is so widespread that it is just accepted as the new correct form.

For example, in the Irish translation of Maeve Binchy's ''The Builders'' which I'm trying to read, Níor dhúirt is used instead of ní dúirt for the negative past tense of the irregular verb abair.

1 year ago

13 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/patbo
patbo
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Take a look at how this sentence works structurally instead of just seeing the pronoun after iarraidh. Then you'll notice that this is nílim ag iarraidh (tú a fheiceáil) rather than nílim (ag iarraidh tú) a fheiceáil.

So you would be right if were an object for iarraidh, but that's not the case here. It's the object for feiceáil in a verbal noun construction. The whole tú a fheiceáil construction is a single unit that must stay together.

In summary, these are the correct sentences:

  • Nílim ag iarraidh tú a fheiceáil arís go deo.

  • Nílim do d'fheiceáil.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/proinsias123

Thanks. That helped a lot.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/scilling
scilling
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Regarding the Irish translation of The Builders, ní dúirt is correct, and níor dhúirt is incorrect, in at least the 2016 Caighdeán (§5.4.5 (b), p. 88) and Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí (§20.15, p. 215). Could níor dhúirt be a dialectal form? Was the translation written in a particular dialect? (Are there other word choices that might point to a particular dialect?)

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/proinsias123

I can't find anything about a particular dialect, but the open door series is aimed at adults with poor reading ability, so I think it's most likely the standard. Perhaps it's partially influnenced by urban Irish?

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/scilling
scilling
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I don’t know anything about urban Irish variations. If it’s from the Open Door series, and it’s not dialectal, then my guess would be that níor dhúirt is just an error. Are the publishers easily contactable, to confirm that níor dhúirt was the translator’s intended form?

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/proinsias123

They probably have a website with information on how to contact them. I don't think it was an error, however, as it appears three times within the first seven pages.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Knocksedan

The book is translated by Lorraine Ní Dhonnchú. Her contact information is available on the web, on a list of certified Irish translators, and she has been working in the Galway Gaeltacht in recent years (though the translation was done in 2007).

Her translation advisor was Pól Ó Cainín - there's some information about him here

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/galaxyrocker

níor dhúirt looks a lot like Connemara Irish, where it's níor úirt.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SatharnPHL

Níor dhúirt also crops up in Timpiste Réidh Le Tarlú, by Vincent Banville, another one of the Open Door series. The translator is Cathal Ó Manacháin.

When I do a search for that phrase on the internet, I find that it crops up in Eoin 21, An Bíobla Naofa 1981 (ABN) (https://www.bible.com/bible/554/JHN.21.abn) and in Caibidil 5 of Rún an Bhonnáin available at www.leighlinn.com (https://www.leighlinn.com/sites/default/files/book-pdfs/Ru%cc%81n%20an%20Bhonna%cc%81in%20-%20Caibidil%205.pdf)

I also see occurrences in some teaching materials (https://www.uni-due.de/DI/DI_Mutations_Now.htm and https://www.irishnews.com/arts/thebluffer/2017/10/08/news/i-say-i-say-a-person-who-tells-you-a-tale-will-take-two-away-with-them--1156787/)

Further research shows that it also crops up in Nancy Stenson's "Intermediate Irish: A Grammar and Workbook" and "Colloquial Irish: The Complete Course for Beginners" by Thomas Ihde, ‎Máire Ní Neachtain, ‎Roslyn Blyn-LaDrew, which is quoting from a book called Gaschaint published by An Gúm in 2005.

All in all it seems to be a form that is used by reliable sources.

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SatharnPHL

And these posters from the Northern Ireland Council for the Curriculum, Examinations and Assessment include níor dhúirt, in both the original and the alternative (Connacht Irish) versions:
http://www.nicurriculum.org.uk/snas_ar_sceal/downloads/Snas_na_Sceal_EC1_%20Card_0.pdf
http://www.nicurriculum.org.uk/snas_ar_sceal/downloads/IM_EC1_%20Card_Connaght.pdf

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/moloughl
moloughl
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Apart from scilling's sources which show that ní dúirt is grammatically correct there are also the following:

- item 4 in Ó Dónaill

(Does not lenite parts of vb. abair beginning with d) ~ deir, ~ déarfaidh, ~ dúirt, sí é, she does not, will not, did not, say it.

Gramadach gan Stró by Éamonn Ó Dónaill gives dúirt, ní dúirt.

Gearrchúrsa Gramadaí by Brian Mac Giolla Phádraig also gives ní dúirt

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/SatharnPHL

There's no question about ní dúirt being correct, that's very clear, and attested in most descriptions of the irregular verbs.

I'm just pointing out that níor dhúirt is also in use. I also thought it was a strange error when I encountered it in Na Tógálaithe, and then again in Timpiste Réidh Le Tarlú, so I did some searching, and apart from blog posts that could be put down to user error with irregular verbs, it also turned up in places that can't be dismissed quite as easily. Proinsias Mac a' Bhaird, the author of Rún an Bhonnáin is from Árainn Mór, the Irish News is a Belfast newspaper, and Gaschaint includes examples from all 3 major dialects, but I don't have a copy, so I don't know if it's reference to níor dhúirt in the description of Deir Ó Grádaigh is dialect specific, but the other sources suggest that níor dhúirt has some currency among some speakers of Ulster Irish.

7 months ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Breandan2014
Breandan2014
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Níor dhúirt is an Ulsterism which you would hear frequently in Belfast and Donegal

1 year ago