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https://www.duolingo.com/endios

Abstraction: Immersion promotes last translation, not the best.

endios
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You can write any translation you want and reverse any translation that is currently in text - the idea itself sounds illogical and in reality it creates abstraction. I couldn't understand it since the day I started my adventure with Duolingo - and it discouraged me from using Immersion, too. I am doing my baby steps there now, but what happens makes want to cover my ears and eyes and run away screaming.

The standart story is: someone translated the sentence rewriting exactly the hints (for example - Spanish personal "a" as English "to", because the hint says so) and translations makes no sence, since there is no way to translate languages word by word. I do my best for my translation to make sence and be faithful, then the first translator comes back to downvote my translation and reverse to his one. Story starts over again. I leave the article to rot in literate hopelessness.

The first idea that comes to my head is one that gets the BEST translation to the article, not the LAST. Just use the sentence with highest upvotes.

Downvotes are a good thing, buy you should be forced to explain them. Otherwise they are fuel to translation reversing wars.

tl;dr Immersion system needs revision since now it encourages reversing wars and gives more power to poor translatotions over better ones.

4 years ago

15 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/Lrtward
Lrtward
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Presenting the translation with the most up votes is also fallible, because an earlier translation might sit for a long time, garnering up votes when it is really not all that great. I, too, experienced a lot of translation wars at first. Then I realized.... When you correct someone else's translation, such as removing the personal a, be sure to make a comment explaining why you did what you did. This way you educate the original translator and they are much less likely to simply revert to their own version over yours. Putting explanations in the comments is a HUGE preventer of translation wars, and quickly turns the translation efforts into a supportive community-minded project. If the person persists, message them directly. If you write your message in a spirit of support, I do not think you will encounter hostility. I never have.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Krone
Krone
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Yes, that conforms with my experience, too: edit wars are made less likely when edits are explained.
Having recently been on the receiving end of some egregiously condescending comments (in the French-to-English Immersion section), though, I must also underline the "spirit of support" you mentioned. Without that, a comment can be worse than no comment.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/ef17

So what is your idea for making the Immersion better?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Lrtward
Lrtward
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I thought I made my suggestions clear, but perhaps not. When editing a translation, be sure to put comments explaining why you are making the change(s). If the editing comments don't seem appropriate, or if you desire more discussion on the matter, write a note directly to the person and talk things out.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/maria.nils
maria.nils
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When you revise a sentence, do you leave a comment explaining why you are doing it? I always try to do that, and immersion has worked better for me since I started with it. I haven't tried spanish immersion yet, though, only italian so far

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/endios
endios
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I do, and I hope it saved me some trouble so far! But you always find this someone who cares more for hints than explanations ;)

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Krone
Krone
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Agreed. Sometimes people are wedded to their (faulty) translation, especially if they were the first to supply one. In that case we have to count on the "wisdom of crowds," but that works better when an article is actually read by a crowd, and not just a few. :)

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Jack.Elliot
Jack.Elliot
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explain when change and add also into the translation comments

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/GregHullender
GregHullender
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I'm not seeing this so much, though. Yes, I see bad translations, but I downvote them, and edit them (with a comment), and they seldom get reversed. If they are absolute garbage, they never get reversed--and I'd report it as abuse if they did.

If I think there's any chance of misunderstanding, I make a post on the person's "wall" to let them know what the problem was. I share credit if I think the person made an honest attempt at the translation, even if they made mistakes. (And I always try to explain the mistakes--Duolingo is a learning platform, and I hope people will explain my mistakes to me too.)

So, yeah, there are a number of people submitting garbage, but, no, I'm not seeing anything like the edit wars you're talking about. Especially not at the higher levels (4 and up).

That said, are you attempting to translate into English or into your own native language?

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/endios
endios
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I understand you didn't experience that, which does not diminish my experiences. I make sure to explain every correction I made in comment and I always give the information that I shared the credit if I do. I wish I could be more cooperative - for now the communication between tranlators is impaired. And I was translating into English, but I'm fluent and I can't see how it matters.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/GregHullender
GregHullender
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Your English may be fluent, but just from your posting here, you make grammar errors in almost all of your sentences. When you edit a gramatically-correct translation and replace it with one that contains errors, then, yes, you should expect to get downvotes. If you are the first to translate a sentence, people will be much more understanding. I suggest you limit yourself to those sentences that have not been translated yet, and when someone edits your translation, try to learn from the changes. But you probably shouldn't be trying to edit existing translations.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/orangeant86
orangeant86
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I don't think it's fair to give people a downvote just because English is not their native language. Most are probably trying to improve the translation, even if they don't actually succeed. I think it would be better to simply change it back to the previous translation and either leave a comment or write on their activity stream to inform them why it wasn't good. I don't think there's any need to downvote them. I'd only downvote if the translation is something completely different to the original like spam advertisements or something.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/endios
endios
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Thank you guys for your advices! I will make sure to apply them.

But I still think the system is faulty and needs revision. I just need to make the most of what I got for now.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/arismartin

I'm Spanish native and I will make many grammatical errors in this post probably (and the other type, of course ). I translate sometimes in my another life (English - Spanish, my natural way). I have level 17 and I have the tree finished and refinished (even though this level doesn't manifest in the present post)

I think that the immersion is a lost issue, there are too much reasons I am not where start by. A document must be translate by a person only, later, another one can check that translation. It's necessary that the text be coherent, with a solid style, unification of technic vocabulary, acronyms... and so on. Here, no one condition is accomplished. And if we talk about all variants in some languages (local variations of different countries) the thing turns impossible.

When I translate, if someone correct me I don't return to text. I don't mind. I don't want to start III WW. I have clear some rules.

1 Who makes a translate cannot return to that sentence. When a judge corrects a verdict, the first judge can say nothing about the same.

2 Each sentence must be correct by someone of high category.

3 For translate you have to be a certificate of 2.5 points at least o the tree finished. If someone has no certificate or doesn't have the tree finished can translate with category 1 and with few points (first the tree, later on, immersion)

4 One reach superior categories per improve the certificate calcification. More the 3 points category 2 ... Between 3 and 4 category 3 and more than 4 category 4. There is no more categories. The actual system is gamed between friends than vote one each other and so both get up of category at light speed. Negative vote can be used for revenge, it's a very bad idea. Who has thought this he does not know human condition :-)

However, the best it's don't worry too much and translate what can be interesting to you and forget the rest.

4 years ago

https://www.duolingo.com/endios
endios
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Thank you for your input. I really like your ideas!

4 years ago