"Where is the Welsh-medium school?"

Translation:Ble mae'r ysgol cyfrwng Cymraeg?

April 2, 2017

6 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/mizinamo

I typed Lle mae'r ysgol gyfrwng Cymraeg? and was corrected to Lle mae'r ysgol cyfrwng Cymraeg?.

I thought that cyfrwng would mutate to gyfrwng after the feminine noun ysgol; is that not so?

April 2, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/ibisc

In this case the phrase cyfrwng Cymraeg (Welsh medium) is being used as a noun rather than an adjective. A literal translation would be 'school of the Welsh medium', which doesn't work in English, so it is translated as 'Welsh-medium school'.

Occasionally you do see ysgol gyfrwng Cymraeg written down, but it seems to be regarded as an error by many people. Nothing to be very concerned about, though, especially as the meaning is clear in any case. Unfortunately Duo does not allow for this sort of 'near miss' as in other contexts getting the mutation wrong can alter the meaning - although, to be fair, not very often at this introductory level of the language.

April 2, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/mizinamo

Ah, I thought nouns used as adjectives still mutate after a feminine singular noun.

As in Cornish, e.g. kador dreth "deck-chair" from kador "chair" + mutated treth "beach" i.e. *cadair draeth.

Geiriadur yr Academi says that in Welsh, a deck-chair is a cadair gynfas "canvas chair", with a mutated cynfas "canvas".

Also, in https://www.duolingo.com/comment/21921480 you say that nouns used as adjectives, as gwaith in taflen waith, do undergo soft mutation after a feminine noun.

So the bit about mutation of nouns after feminine nouns must be a bit more complicated?

April 3, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/shwmae

So the bit about mutation of nouns after feminine nouns must be a bit more complicated?

Yes! Feminine singular nouns cause translators and terminologists headaches sometimes, as an argument can be made that a following noun is either genitive (= no mutation) or simply modifying (= soft mutation) or both (= problem!). An example would be "maternity unit".

Some examples:

Mamolaeth is usually considered adjectival: uned famolaeth but you also see uned mamolaeth i.e. genitive.

"Learning centre" is most likely canolfan ddysgu. But "Welsh learning centre" is more likely to be canolfan dysgu Cymraeg = "centre of Welsh learning". Indeed the new National Centre for Learning Welsh is Y Ganolfan Dysgu Cymraeg Genedlaethol. Confusing!

As @ibisc says, it's not a major concern - just something ieithgwn ("grammar anoraks"?) argue over occassionally and it's a bit beyond the scope of Duolingo.

April 3, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/mizinamo

Very interesting, thank you!

I wasn't aware of this distinction between genitive and modifying usage but it does help a bit to understand what's going on.

April 3, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/shwmae

Yeah, it's not as simple as I put it, but I think you get the picture. It's actually something that often confuses native speakers too.

April 3, 2017
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