https://www.duolingo.com/weitzhandler

How to say any verb in a commanding manner?

Hi,

I haven't reached it yet, but this one is really important to me when talking the language and I bump into it a lot.

How do you say: go!, eat!, learn!, speak!, is it done by adding a j to the 3rd sg. form (menj, eszj, tanulj, beszelj)? If so, how is it pronounced? Does lj become ly? How about nj, tj etc.?

Any other things to remember?

1 year ago

18 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/Andreas305
Andreas305
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Not that easy as you think.

With a lot of verbs it is really that easy as you suggest: adding a -j to the stemm builds the 2nd person singular indefinite form of the imperative. Beside this there is a second form with -jál / -jél.

tanul = tanulj / tanuljál, beszél = beszélj / beszéljél, vár = várj / várjál etc.

If the -j is following an -l-, the "l" is not pronounced, so tanulj sounds like "tanuj".

But there are those irregular verbs, which change their stemm: eszik = egyél, iszik = igyál, tesz = tegyél, vesz = vegyél,hisz = higgyél

And here you do not have a second form (without -ál / él)

And then you have those verbs with a sibilant on the end of the stemm, which assimilates the -j

olvas = olvass / olvassál, befejez = befejezz / befejezzél

Some other verbs with a -t at the end of the stemm assimilate the stemm as well or change completely:

vét = véts / vétsél (VERBIX gives a wrong answer here!!!)

tanít = taníts / tanítsál

fut = fuss / fussál, köt = köss / kössél

And finally don't forget: all those forms are valid only as 2nd person singluar indefinite!

For 2nd person plural you have other suffixes as well as for expressing the formal you (- which needs the 3rd person singular or plural.)

And of course for the definite forms you have other suffixes again ;-)

Especially for the 2nd person singular there are again two forms:

tanul = tanuld / tanuljad, ír = írd / írjad

eszik = edd / egyed, iszik = idd / igyad

and so on

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/96314081311257

One addition: consonant-length is never lost, so tanulj is pronounced as [tanujj], not as [tanuj]. (Since the "j" isn't technically silent, but it gets assimilated. The same goes for other cases: adj is pronounced as [aggy].)

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/weitzhandler

WOW thank you, this has been bothering me a great deal. I'd appreciate if you can add more examples of these.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/96314081311257

Here are some examples, but briefly about the most important ones.

First of all, you need to know that there can be no long consonant right after another consonant. So kardal (choir song) is a homophone of karddal (with (a) sword), both pronouced as [kardal].

If two neighbouring consonants are of different voicedness, the last one changes the ones before. So mézben (in honey) mészben (in whitemash) are both pronounced as [mézben]. (Note that this is the exact opposite of what happens in English.)

There are kind of hard - soft pairs in Hungarian, in the form of t-ty, d-gy, n-ny, l-j/ly. (j ly are pronounced the same.) The rule is: if any of the hard ones are followed by a soft one, they turn soft. This might result in a long consonant. If j/ly follows any of these, it completely assimilates, lengthens the consonant if possible. (So látja (it sees it) is pronounced [láttya].)

If n is followed by a bilabial or a velar consonant, it turns bilabial or velar. So színpad (theatre stage) is [szímpad], in ing [shirt] the n makes the same sound as the end of English sing.

s zs assimilate the sz z before them. So egészségedre (bless you!, cheers!) (egész-ségedre) is [egésségedre].

c, cs, dz, dzs assimilate the t, d, ty, gy before them. So utca (street) is [ucca].

If t or d is followed by s, sz, z, zs, they turn into long cs, c, dz, dzs. So játszik (to play) is [jáccik].

Note that historically cs was written as ts, c as tz or cz. In such cases it's read accordingly. So Babits is [babics], not [babiccs].

EDIT: oh, sorry. Also, l before r gets assimilated. So balra is [barra].

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/niko489445

I'll attempt to further explain this, as I've learnt it in elementary school (native Hungarian English major here).

All of these are different cases of assimilation. Assimilation can be full and partial.

Partial assimilation happens in two ways:

First, partial assimilation based on voicedness, which is regresssive in Hungarian, contrary to the progressive in English. As you probably know, most consonants come in voiceless/voiced pairs (b/p, c/dz, t/d, v/f, k/g, ty/gy, s/zs, sz/z). In English, it is always the second consonant thats voicedness assimilates to the first: "lizards" is pronounced az "lizardz", 's' becomes its voiced pair 'z', because 'd' is voiced. In Hungarian, it all goes the opposite direction, and the first consonant assimilates to the second: "vízkő" is pronounced "víszkő", 'z' becomes 'sz', because 'k' is voiceless, and "kapzsi" becomes "kabzsi", because 'zs' is voiced.

The second type of assimilation is based on the place of articulation. To my knowledge it only happens with the letter 'n', which becomes 'ŋ' (sorry about the IPA) in words like "színház". The good thing is, it happens just like in English, and you are physically unable to not do this. Say "thing". If you listen carefully, you'll notice, that the 'n' in "thing" is also an 'ŋ', as it is articulated at the back of your mouth, while a normal 'n' is somewhere just behind your teeth. This is because 'g' and 'h' are both articutaled at the back. (I'd rather not go deeper into articulation, there's a whole branch of science dedicated to this.)

Total assimilation also has two kinds: one is marked in writing, the other is not.

If it is marked, then the consonant which assimilates becomes the exact same letter as the other. This only happens with some suffixes, namely -val, -vel, -vá, -vé. If you attach one of them to a word that ends with a vowel, the 'v' remains a 'v' (szó - szóval). However, if you attach them to a word ending in a consonant, the 'v' becomes the same consonant both in pronounctioation and in writing (szék - székkel).

Unfortunately, I don't know of any general rule for unmarked full assimilation, but it basicly when two consonants meet, and one becomes the other in speech, but not in writing. Here are some links: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Hungarian_pronunciation_assimilation#Full_assimilation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_phonology#Assimilation

Another thing is consonant fusion. This is when two different consonants are pronounced as a third (usually a long one). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusion_(phonetics) http://www.helyesiras.com/massalhangzo-osszeolvadas (the second link is in Hungarian, but the examples are probably still helpful)

Also elision: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elision http://www.magyarnyelvtan.hu/massalhangzo-kieses

This is about the quarter of all things Hungarian pronounctiation and spelling.

Sorry, it's 1:30 AM, I'll go to sleep now.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/weitzhandler

omg that's scary! does the duolingo course teach em all?

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/JanTatouse
JanTatouse
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No, as far as I know the number of verb tenses and forms taught in this course is very limited. You need to use other resources, and mastering these verbs is not easy. It is my main problem currently in my otherwise successful attempts at Hungarian conversation.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/weitzhandler

Unbelievable. Totally unproductive course then. Only teaching unuseful flying kindergarten teachers stuff and other repetitive never-to-be-used phrases. I thoughts it's because they want to cover all the language features, they should better have focused in making the course more colloquial not teaching all those stupid sentences, but since it's free nobody can really complain.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/acjbuck
acjbuck
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A bit harsh. There is a general problem in learning Hungarian in that there aren't many resources for the learner. Because of the lack of competition, there is also a issue with the quality of the materials. So those of us who have been learning Hungarian for a long time learn to make do with what we can find.

Because Hungarian is so far away from English grammatically, it is also difficult to present Hungarian to students in English within the Duolingo format of equivalent sentences.

But, having used this course since it became available, I can say there has been a marked improvement in my listening comprehension - The Duolingo course provides high quality recordings of naturally spoken Hungarian, and you can replay them as many times as necessary. I have also been introduced to new grammar; the pronouns of place and movement, and relative clauses. There is also plenty of practice: I've completed the tree, but I'm still finding new sentences. Also I've gained insights into the language from chatting in the threads for individual sentences (hat tip vvsey).

Duolingo Hungarian is a frustrating experience, especially I should think for beginners, but not totally unproductive.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/knudvaneeden
knudvaneeden
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Q. How to use the imperative verb form in Hungarian?

A.

1) See e.g.

http://www.verbix.com/languages/hungarian.shtml

2) Choose / type / paste any infinitive verb there

E.g.

iszik

3) Then look at the conjugation of the 'imperative' option there.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/JanTatouse
JanTatouse
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That's a great resource! Thanks for sharing. I also use wiktionary which works similarly but it looks like this page uses some automatic algorithms to conjugate verbs so you can enter anything, even non-existing verbs. That's actually quite nice, but it obviously has to be used carefully.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/knudvaneeden
knudvaneeden
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Verbix is the best. I already use it a long time for many languages.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/trisec
trisec
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1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/acjbuck
acjbuck
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It's a bizarre feature of this course that it doesn't teach the 'felszolitó' mood. It's far more complex than the English imperative mood, and has many more uses. I remember how surprised I was when I realised my Hungarian wife was using "gyere!" not "jön" with our children. Hungarians hear the felszolító first.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Judit294350

Yes, seems you need it more than any other mood!

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/knudvaneeden
knudvaneeden
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Q. Can you give some links about Hungarian?

A.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/weitzhandler

That's some great pile of stuff, and I thank you for sharing it. Can you please isolate the most prominent ones? Your top 5-10 favs?

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/knudvaneeden
knudvaneeden
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Not really sure at this moment, I collect in a similar way links for a lot of other natural languages, Hungarian is just one of those.

1 year ago
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