I am a native English speaker, and a linguist. "You and me" is perfectly fine English... the problem is that the prescriptive grammarians and the educational institutions are trying to deny the fact that the rest of us use it, accept it, and wish the "you and I" police would go live on an island by themselves ;) .
Native English speaker and teacher. You and me is perfectly fine in some situations but not in others. Just take out the other person/people to work it out, e.g.:
You and I go to the shops - I go to the shops (correct)
You and me go to the shops - Me go to the shops (incorrect)
He will ask you and I later - he will ask I later (incorrect)
He will ask you and me later - He will ask me later (correct)
Having said that, I am not a prescriptive grammarian and have no personal issues with people saying "you and me" when it is not strictly correct to do so, fundamentally that is how language changes after all and nobody can stop that.
You sure about that? Just in the sentence he tried I seem to have found a flaw in that system:
:: You and me are walking -- Me are walking. (incorrect) :: You and I are walking -- I are walking (still incorrect)
If you take off the "You and" it doesn't work regardless of whether one uses 'me' or 'I,' so how can the rule be that you take off the "You and" to determine if it is grammatically sound?
Good observation. When taking out the "you and" component of the sentence, it's also necessary to change the verb conjugation to singular (eg: 'am', rather than 'are')
Therefore, "You and I are walking" would be more accurately compared to "I am walking"
This wasn't obvious from Wunel's example above, since the verb 'go' is the same in singular and plural. This is generally true for most present tense English verbs, but not for French verbs (which is why we use 'marchons' in this example, rather than 'marche')
Respectfully you are wrong on this as taking out the "you and" is irrelevant as you would have to change the conjugation whether you use 'me' or 'I'. You and me is a way of expressing 'we' in the same way that 'He' or 'She' could be used instead of the person's name the only difference being that 'you and me' and 'you and I' already use pronouns. Both mean 'we'.
"You and me" is definitely considered incorrect grammar - people say it, but certainly if you were to use it in a speech, an essay, or even a semi-formal letter it would be viewed as wrong. Wunel explained the correct usage in any sort of formal situation. Personally most of the people I know would say "you and I" in this situation regardless.
Yes, but some people would say "you and I" whether it were correct or not, just because they know that sometimes it's correct, and it sounds haughtier. This probably means that the language is changing towards "I" being a formal-self, and "me" being an informal-self, in either "you and I" or "you and me" (the formal or informal we).
Surely then, it's only a matter of time before we all start saying "I saw youse goin' down the shops this arvo" and "Innit great y'all like campin'?"
I do wonder if our language changes because people know the correct format and choose not to use it, or because we can't be bothered learning it to begin with.
I suppose that as we do with other things, we sometimes end up catering to the lowest common denominator, right?
Sorry - I should have been a bit clearer. I agree that language should not be incapable of change, and should support effective communication. Sometimes though, a relaxation of some of those rules makes communication difficult, just like it has in this and other threads where we argue what is "technically" correct, as opposed to what "most/some/a lot of" people actually say.
Anyway, best not to get bogged down in that here. I only have another 270 or so lessons before I've finished my tree, so I had best get on with it!
1) In spoken or casual usage, of course "you and me" is fine in this sentence, as there is no ambiguity of meaning. In formal, written English, it is obviously and unambiguously incorrect. 2) Especially when trying to learn another (formal, written) language using a set of rules, it pays to remember the distinction between a subject and object. 3) Judgements aside, using the rules correctly is used to convey seriousness in English writing, so someone learning the language benefits from knowing them!
In English, "I" is the first-person subject pronoun, while "me" is the first-person object pronoun. Since the pronoun functions as the subject in this sentence, "I" is the correct choice.
That said, when there is a compound subject that includes a first-person pronoun, people will often use "me" in the subject position, but only when the subject is compound. We would never say, for example, "Me is walking to the store," but we often say "You and me are walking to the store." It is not technically correct, and most people wouldn't use "me" this way in written English, but in spoken English (in the United States anyway), it is becoming standard and no longer sounds incorrect to most of us.
In fact, it is also becoming standard to use the subject pronoun "I" in the object position, but again only in compounds. So, we wouldn't say "Give it to I," but you will often hear "Give it to Mary and I" (technically, it should be "Give it to Mary and me"). You might also hear "Give Mary and I the book," though never "Give I the book." This still sounds incorrect to me, but people say it all the time, so I guess I'll have to get used to it. As others have noted, languages change.
"You and me" is taught as being correct in some situations, but incorrect in others. Here, it would be taught as being incorrect, but, as you point out, it's fine conversationally in this context. I think that's (i mean, its acceptability here is) because "me" is separated from the action it's doing, so it seems more like a possible object. Dunno, though.
The thing is, we are supposed to be learning the correct French grammar. I am wondering why, in a correct French sentence, one would have to use "moi" where a nominative pronoun is called for. Although in English some people mistakenly use "me" where they ought to use "I," it is a mistake; it is NOT correct. Why is "moi" correct here instead of "I"?
It seems we still don't have an answer to why it is permissible (in French!) to use 'moi' instead of 'je' in subject position. Is this just the same sort of phenomenon that's happened in English over the years? Could we say here: "Vous et je marchons"? (or "Je et vous marchons"?)
I also found this weird. Since I couldn't find an answer in this thread to why "moi" could be accusative, I looked elsewhere on Duolingo. There's a good discussion of a similar example here: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/240036.
Apparently these are called "disjunctive" phrasings, where an object pronoun is used just where we'd expect a subject pronoun. So instead of saying "elle et j'aimons les fruits," you would say "Elle et moi[, nous] aimons les fruits." ("Nous" is an optional appositive here.)
I was unclear, I am sorry. I meant to convey that if you and I took a walk together we would say that, you and I, "WE walk" or, in French, vous et moi, "NOUS marchons". The "we/nous" is not stated directly in this sentence but you conjugate the verb as though it was. A quick example of this:
- Une femme, elle marche
- Un homme et sa fille, ils marchent
- Ton ami et toi, vous marchez
- Tu et moi, nous marchons
Clearing this up for people:
The reason "are" is used is because for the verb "to be", are is used for plural pronouns, e.g we are, they are (the reason "you" has "are" is because in Middle English, when "thou" was used, it was used for singular "you", and "you" was used for plural but like the French, plural "you" was the formal way of addressing someone, and after a while the English dropped "thou")
The reason "I" is used is because of the grammar behind cases and pronouns: like German(English is Germanic, from Anglo-Saxons) with "ich"(nominative), "mich"(accusative), "mir"(dative), and "mein"(genitive),
English has "i"(nominative), "me"(accusative / dative), and "my"(genitive)
Anyway, because of that, the reason "i" is used instead of "me" is because "i" is the subject of a sentence, aka the one doing the verb, and "me" is the one getting the verb done to them(object). This generally isn't a problem for English because of how well you can understand the meaning of a sentence, I could say "Me like she" and you would understand it being "I like her".
However, if I was to write this in German as
„Mich mag sie”
It would mean "She likes me" with emphasis on "me"(kinda like someone saying " She likes ME").
So the result from this: You can say "you and me walk" as a casual thing, but if you are talking formally to a person, a Grammar justice warrior, or a German learning English, you are better off speaking the correct cases for pronouns.
TL:DR : "you" is actually plural, "me" is wrong unless you're a dog being taken on a walk, and kinda like grammerical gender, English has rules, but nobody bothers to apply them
(I should note, i'm on mobile, so sorry if the formatting is eye bleach worthy, just imagine paragraph breakers if the formatting messes up ;) )
This is ridiculous. We are told that in the present tense it could be 'are walking' or 'walk'. So what is the problem? I wrote, you and I are walking. And I would expect even you and 'me' would work as well, given the 'relaxation' of the English language in more recent years.