https://www.duolingo.com/joekallo

Third tier frustration

I have been working on the third tier of exercises for a month or so now, and I am starting to get weary. I've been trying to figure out what the problem is for me. I think it boils down to this: in many of those skill bubbles the sentence are way, way too long.

Case in point: in the three case skills, when you're doing a timed "strengthen your skills" the sentences are so long that typing them in (my native) English would take half the allotted time. So I either avoid the skill strengthening and do the lessons over and over, or I do strengthening and skip lots of the huge sentences. Either option feels like I am gaming the course and not actually learning.

Anyone have any advice? Is this actually a problem or should I just be trying harder?

1 year ago

16 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/Krisbaudi
Krisbaudi
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You are right, the sentences of a few lessons are too long and frustrating. I think, nobody would ever be able, to do them in the short time version, even if he/she is a native Hungarian with very good English knowledge. I decreased my Hungarian learning in the Beta version for this reason and have better learning results in the reverse tree. In no other language course I felt stuck and without a perspective to conquer the lessons in a normal time. I don't want to be forced to use copy and paste, because there is too little learning effect. As you write, this is more like gaming and not like learning. But without it, some lessons are impossible to conquer, due to the lenghts and the uncommon English sentences, which I cannot remember. (No problems with English in the reverse tree.) We are testing this Beta-version and our comments are important to improve the course. Hopefully the developers and bilinguists will have enough time and will, to finish this great and difficult work for us learners. Maybe the frustration is even bigger on their side. I hope the best for all of us.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/piguy3
piguy3
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I think anybody who's gotten far enough in the course will identify with your sentiments. In my opinion the biggest problem with the long sentence is what you point to: that they make timed practice too difficult. If you do tackle one of them, the amount of time added does take into consideration the length, but obviously the odds you make a mistake go up greatly, so it doesn't really make up for it.

I, like you, resort to skipping them, or doing untimed strengthening. I have never felt a whiff of compunction about this because it's clear the sentences are just more demanding than what the timed practice system is designed around. I'm sure you'll agree that sentences in your other three courses just don't hold a candle to the ones in Hungarian — and it's those courses that existed when the timed practice system was implemented, not Hungarian.

When you've strengthened a skill enough, the sentences will become more familiar. You might think out the translation to yourself and check if it's right as you happily bypass the need to actually type it. This way you'll get the bulk of the learning value while sparing yourself some of the headaches.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Krisbaudi
Krisbaudi
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Yes! :-)

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/bajczand
bajczand
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This tree is more difficult than the English for Hungarian. The English for Hungarians tree has many simply, short sentences, but the reverse tree (Hungarian for English speakers) has many complex sentences. These sentences are too long with lots of words. I make the beat the clock version, but it is a big challange for me, despite of I am a professional typist and the Hungarian is my native language.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Andreas305
Andreas305
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https://www.duolingo.com/comment/17140010

I can't believe it. Allready nine months ago, I wrote that. Every sentence with more than twelve words I reported as "too long". But nothing happened. And a technical problem of those long sentences appeared in Multiple choise questions: the answering menu was hidden!

And what did the programmers do? No, they did not wipe out those sentences. They made the width of the questioning and answering part of the window flexible! Formerly fifty-fifty now it can be 30% / 70% or so.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Krisbaudi
Krisbaudi
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Maybe it is a test program to prevent us from learning Hungarian. This feeling arouse again and again in me as now, when i read your comment.I would create such sentences only for that reason, but never to teach somebody. The lenghth of the sentences is one factor, the content another one. This combination is unbearable for me and makes me angry. But there are more and more good sentences in the first lessons and some after the middle (the torture, which never seems to end). These long sentences have to be changed quickly, before more and more learners give up (which could be the intention as well)

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/joekallo

Ha! I never thought about that! My experience dealing with Hungarians has been that they are all totally thrilled to hear someone trying to learn Hungarian (and I don't just mean my Hungarian dad). That said, I also find myself getting angry at points. It's not that the sentences are particularly tricky, they're just insanely long. They don't make me angry like a puzzle does, but like having to stand in a very long line at the grocery store does. It really is annoying.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/NagyDave
NagyDave
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I am a native Hungarian speaker and I can type very fast. I only do timed practices. There are too many long and complex sentences. In other courses at the end of the practice usually I have 1 minute 15-30 seconds. But in this course, i need to hurry to complete all 20 sentences.

The numbers are my favorite. When I have to listen all the numbers from 30, 40... to 100 while I type the answer. It is like when you count something and someone tries to distract you saying numbers.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/cosmo-pedant
cosmo-pedant
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I agree with a lot of this. But tell me, joekallo, what do you mean by "third tier"? Do you read and study the Discussion forums that are available upon submission of almost every question and answer?I have made a lot of notes based on those discussions! In other words, how can you learn much in that "timed practice" format? That format does have its value and purpose, but it is no way to approach the good learning and understanding and information which I find in the Discussion. There are other resources for learning this stuff (many within the Duolingo universe). This all may be irrelevant to you. [Maybe it is the algorithm that has got you by the tail. Common phenomenon these days!] P. S. - - I do now see your point about how diificult it might be to absorb much doing the "Strrengthen Your Skills" (SYS) lesson (or any difficult Lesson) in the Timed Practice (TP) format. It does exercise "the ole' noggin" - which is good. After this discussion, my strategy for practice has evolved. I will use it more often when I am confident that all my skills are already strong and then I will be sure to make some edifying notes immediately afterwards..Kosonom szepen! (I need a new keyboard.) Again though, please, in order to be clear: what do you mean by "third tier"? I am thinking that you mean The Third Checkpoint . . . .? - joekallo.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/joekallo

By third tier, I just mean "the stuff after the second checkpoint -- beginning with Def-conj-1 and Time"

So I probably complicated my point overly much given the response. It seems that we mostly all agree that timed practice is important. It's more random, and it puts the pressure on in a way that's similar to what happens when you're actually using the language "on the ground." As someone noted, I feel like timed practice is the thing that makes the contents of the lessons "stick" in my mind.

That all said, the timed practice sentences in the section I identified are much longer than in other Duolingo courses I've done. That alone seems like reason to raise a concern. But further: some of the sentence are so long that even just retyping them in Hungarian (so forget the translating) would take much of the time given. I am not a speed typer, but I work a keyboard for a living so I don't think this is just a matter of me needing to type faster.

And yes, one solution is to just ignore timed practice, but that seems far from satisfactory. It's an integral part of Duolingo. A simpler solution would be to have more manageable sentences, no?

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/piguy3
piguy3
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Timed practice and reading discussions are not somehow mutually exclusive. Once you've read the discussions, you apply what you've learned in timed practice. Since you run through questions faster in timed practice, you're more likely to come upon a sentence you haven't seen yet, at which point at least I am perfectly happy to look at the discussion if anything is unclear to me and just let the time run out. Overall, I think the vast majority of vocab that I've gotten into my long term memory from Duolingo trees has primarily been my means of timed practice.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/cosmo-pedant
cosmo-pedant
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piguy3 - That confirms my thoughts. Why not just abandon the timed practice (so insubstantial otherwise) in order to reserve and productively engage in a certain "Discussion" which is revelatory and/or intriguing? I'll try that again (". . . [go to the Discussion and] let the time run out" ! ! !) Also, I will see how my vocabulary firms up by utilizing that fast-paced exercise of timed practice. That is "a value and a purpose" which I suspected. Sok sikert!

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/izdener

Dear joekallo. If you're still having trouble with long sentences, text me and I'm gonna try my best to help you. I'm a native speaker, I know very well how hard to understand and translate long sentences. I've checked some of those kinda predicates and I must say we don't really talk like that. Hungarian language is all about simplicity.

Meghívattathatnál. / It's hard to translate but kind of 'You could get an invitation for me'. Here, doesn't matter who you convince to invite me, or when, but to do so. or Mondhatnád neki hogy hívjon meg. You could tell him/her to invite me. Here I want you to talk with the host to allow me to get to his party or whatever. :)

Second one is easier to understand for new learners. And most people talk like that, but some folks like to say sentences like the first one. We commonly don't like to over-complicate tings, but when we really do like it to create chaos in the heads. :D

And we almost never say sentences like:

A kulcsod abban az asztalfiókban van, ami az emeleti szobádban van, a könyvespolc alatt, ami mellett van egy virág. Your keys are in the drawer, which is upstairs in your room, under the bookshelf - that has a flower next to it.

So, cheer up, don't worry about too long sentences and let me know if you need some help. :)

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/bookrabbit
bookrabbit
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I think the problem is not with the sentences but with the timed practice format. I can't type fast enough to use it beyond the shortest sentences in any language. It ought to vary the time given based on the sentence length and allow for time taken for virtual keyboards to appear and the fact that people type slower when using them. Use the app to strengthen instead. I can assure you the material will stick without it. I do the lessons on the website first, then repeat on the app which uses more questions and then strengthen on the app. I have just done the third section of the tree in three days, I love the course, it feels as if it was made for adults, although there are a few sentences where they could accept a few more variations, but hopefully they are still acceting reports. Of course I doubt I could have done it as fast if I hadn't done Turkish first. The cases work the same way and that one also contains lots of long sentences, another fantastic course.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/Andy705222

Is it just me, or are the assignments genuinely more difficult when I do them in the browser version as compared to the iPad version. I have the impression that an exercise on the iPad is mostly mutiple choice or combining words provided, with maybe only one or two sentences having to be typed from scratch. On the browser version I am typing virtually everything which of course opens more room to get things wrong and thus have to repeat.

1 year ago

https://www.duolingo.com/joekallo

No, I think you're right. Someone up above mentioned doing the strengthening assignments on a mobile device and I've found that works much better. I have moved to doing new materials in the browser, then everything else mobile. It means there's no timed practice, which is sad, but it also means that my level of frustration has dropped.

1 year ago
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