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  5. "おふろではありません。"

"おふろではありません。"

Translation:It is not a bathtub.

June 6, 2017

74 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/gwhiteside

"Let's go to the beach."

"I'll get my soap!"

"It is not a bathtub."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FAlter5

You never take soap into a Japanese bathtub. You wash and shower before you enter. The water is not changed between the family members, all bath in the same water, so only after they are already clean. But お風呂 means the bath, not explicitely only the bathtub, it can mean a bit more. You would never translate お風呂が好き as "I like the bathtub", but more as" I like bathing". But the bathroom is the lit. "bathplace" お風呂場 and there is no toilet in the bathroom (this is in another room which it is called お手洗い or トイレ).

Edit: What I wanted to say before I got lost is that you would not take soap into the bathTUB, but to the bath. So in the context of the Japanese お風呂 it might be ok to speak about soap, but only when you do not translate it as bathTUB. Soap in the bathtub is a no-go. The one using the same water after you would see the foam and think that you washed in the bathTUB, which means you would have gone into it while dirty, so the water is dirty now.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/rioscac

What's the difference between は and では?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KiritsuguZFC

ではありません is the negative form of です. Hence, "It is not a bathtub". では often gets contracted into じゃ (this is slightly less formal), so it becomes じゃありません (or even more informally じゃない).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AndreaBrownRiley

Oh!!!! This is why I've been so confused!! When I took an actual class, tgey never taught de wa, just ja. Thank you for clarifying this!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/infinitefluff

Ja is the slightly less formal version of dewa. So you can go from formal to informal: ではありません、じゃありません、じゃない.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/rioscac

I've also heard ではない from a native speaker. Probably goes before じゃない and after じゃありません on that politeness continuum?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoshuaLore9

I'm not a native speaker, but I'd put ではない slightly closer to じゃない than じゃありません.

I think people tend to use ではない to emphasize a feeling of "yeah... but not really", rather than flat out negation. For example:

・いやいや、上手じゃないよ = "No no, I'm not good at all"

・いやいや、上手ではないよ = "No no, I'm not really that good"

(It could also just depend a lot on the tone of delivery, and I'm just used to hearing it one way over the other ┐('~`;)┌)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/myppwmikeATgmail

Let's put it simply like this: おふろではありません。- This is not a bathtub. おふろはありません。- There is no bathtub.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/cynsanity

Thank you I was really confused!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Anthony579082

So basically ではありません it is not, はありません there is not (the thing)?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Tc3KDQp5

If it was just は, making it おふろはありません。, then the translation would be "There is no bathtub".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/rioscac

そうです!So is お風呂ではありません just a different way of saying お風呂ではない? Would there be any difference in the context of usage (e.g. formality etc)?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Tc3KDQp5

They're basically the same thing. The latter one is just a bit informal.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/rioscac

And for people, like 彼女は母さんじゃない, do you use 母さんではいません instead?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PeterKovalsky

You can think of the では there as changing the focus from the person to the state of being, which is inanimate. "The state of being a mother ありません," essentially.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KeithWong9

For people really want to understand what で is underneath, it is one of the particle usage - "in/as a state of." So これはトイレです expands to これはトイレであります meaning "This exists as a concept/state of a toilet." In a more reader-friendly version, "This is a toilet."

Similarly, トイレではありません means "(This) does not exists as a concept of a toilet." The は in ではありません is a contrast marker particle stressing the negative fact.

トイレがあります means "A toilet exists." Note that the subject is different from トイレであります (implicitly これ is the subject - これは is omitted from the sentence). Using the same logic, トイレはありません is "A toilet does not exist." In other words, "There is no toilet."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/John863934

And であります nearly always gets shortened to です.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/hiyawhatthe

Fantastic, thank you.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/andrew867

So ですmeans "it is" and ではありません means "it isn't"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/maruseron

I found this confusing until I found out that 「です」is a contraction for 「ではあります」。

It was quite a revelation.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Alycatvrl

What is the grammatical difference between "It is not a bathtub," and "There is no bathtub," in Japanese? Also anyone have trouble with the same two questions repeating?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoshuaLore9

This has already beed discussed at length on this discussion page. Please try to have a read of the earlier comments for a more thorough understanding. In summary:

  • あります = ある = "to exist" = "There is ..."
  • ありません = ない = "to not exist" = "There isn't .../There is no ..."
  • です = "is" (= である, not commonly used in modern Japanese) = "It is (a) ..."/"I am (a) ..."
  • ではありません = ではない = "is not" = "It isn't (a) ..."/"I'm not (a) ..."

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoeWerner2

Except here it states "dewa arimasen" (sorry for the transcription, need to figure out how to change that). By your explanation it would be "it is not"...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoshuaLore9

That's right. That's why the suggested translation for this sentence is "It is not a bathtub".

P.s. no need to apologize for romaji; it's just as valid for communication as "real" Japanese, though I don't recommend it as a target if your learning Japanese.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/John863934

Unless you're on mobile, you can select the text at the top of the page and copy it.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PrismVelocity

A lot of people here are getting confused by the sentences meaning "It is not a bathtub." and "There is not a bathtub.", but they are not the same; there is a difference. Pay attention to the appearance/lack of では at the beginning of each verb. Pay special attention to the whether there is a で in front of the は; one is a part of the verb itself, the other is the topic particle for the preceeding noun.

です(desu) : "It is a ~" {short for ではあります(dewa arimasu)}

ではありません(dewa arimasen) : "It is not a ~"

あります(arimasu) : "There is a ~" or "a ___ exists" or "he has a ~"

ありません(arimasen) : "there isn't a ~" or "a __ doesn't exist" or "he doesn't have a ~"

Here's my personal method for remembering: Take で; when read by itself, it can be the utility/method particle , usually translated with phrases like "via ~", "using ~" or "by means of ~", but for the purposes of this example we'll translate with the word "as". So when put together with the "topic" particle は (You can excuse as emphasis), and then the verb あります, you would get "it exists as ~" or "it exist by means of ~". And because existance in the form or condition of something is the very definition of identity, the phrase can be shortened to "it is ~". After that, you can congugate to the negative with ~ません.

A few caveats though: Apparently として is what you use for roles and functions, not で. And neither です nor ではありません change form when the subject is something living or animate, unlike あります which changes to います.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/John863934

Given how many people ask this question in the first place, It's doubtful how many of them actually bother to read the discussion. So unless you get the 500 votes to make it to the top...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/antoniojack

What does the "o" at the beggining of the sentence do?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AlexandrSantos

I think it basically means that you are not talking about your own bathtub. Remember that the Japanese tend to avoid personal pronouns, so "あなたのふろ" would not be an option. Much like when you want to ask someone's name and you ask them "お名前は何ですか". I've seen this お translated as "your honorable..." before in japanese movies.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Garaekz

Is a honorific prefix I don't know why but some words preserve this prefix like お茶 and お水


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/rioscac

For honorifics, other than お there's also ご go as in ご飯?・ごはん and ご案内・ごあんない.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hlne207723

O- as an honorific prefix goes on native Japanese words (usually only one kanji) whilst go- is used with words written usually with more than one kanji, which are read with their Naomi.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/John863934

Auto correct, eh?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Madean6

How can i differentiate "there is(not)" and "it is(not)" in japanese?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoshuaLore9

Unfortunately, it comes down to memorizing あります/ありません for "there is (not)" and です/ではありません for "it is (not)".

A little trick for hearing it in speech (not sure how well this works with Duo's audio) is, in my experience, native speakers tend to put a short pause before the verb, if they're trying to be better understood by a foreigner. So, for this exercise, you might hear 「お風呂、ではありません」 as opposed to 「お風呂は、ありません」. It's probably too subtle to catch most of the time though...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PrismVelocity

I don't think you need to memorize it really; just know that です is short for the very archaic ではあります, and also noting that で when read by itself can be the utility/method particle, sometimes translated with the word "as". So put together with the "topic" particle は (I assume for emphasis), and then the verb あります, you would get "it exists as -" or "it exist by means of -". And because existance in the form or condition of something is the very definition of identity, the phrase can be shortened to "it is -". After that, you can congugate to the negative with ~ません.

Of course, I'm no expert on Japanese Etemology, but this is how I remember it. This line of reasoning also falls apart when you consider the verb います: neither です nor ではありません change form when the subject is something living or animate.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PrismVelocity

Oh, I didn't do my proper fact checking. Apparently として is what you use for roles and functions, not で. Hopefully I didn't mislead anyone too much.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/John132080

How would I go about saying "This is not a bathtub", referring to an object in front of me? I feel like I would really enjoy just going around explaining to people what is not a bathtub.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoshuaLore9

Knock yourself out! XD

これはおふろではありません! (これ = "this")

If you want to be emphatic about it, you can add よ on the end ;)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Megalopsycha

So if u put de in there, it's saying IT isnt a bathtub?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PrismVelocity

FINALLY SOMEBODY GETS IT!!!

errm... ahem I mean. Yes, you are right. はありません is the negative of です after all, which itself is short for not-really-used-anymore ではあります. You can (and probably should) read the rest of this discussion for details. I recommend starting near the top.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoshuaLore9

ご苦労様です、@PrismVelocityさんwww


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ryu152657

So "dewa-arimasen" means "it is not", while "arimasen" only means "there is no"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KeithWong9

Yes. "It is not" can be a different pronoun "I/you/he/she/we/they" as usual.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JaimeSincl

Whats the difference between furo and ofuro?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoshuaLore9

Essentially, not much I think. お is an honorific prefix here, but like in お水 and お茶, its main purpose is to make you sound "proper" and "nice". I don't think it's necessarily rude to drop it, but お風呂 is so ubiquitously used, people might do a double-take without the お.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Crys_tal

Don't they say "janai" in Japanese instead of "de wa arimasen"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoshuaLore9

They say both. じゃない is simply more casual.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Azraelios

I'll put this here because it confused the hell out of me. おふろはありません means: It's no bathtub. Adding ”で” to this line (おふろではありません ) changes the translation to: It's not a bathtub. I would say that in English, It is no ... and It's not a ... are pretty much interchangable but appearantly not in Japanese. Could someone clarify this for me?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoshuaLore9

If you're confused, I would suggest reading the other comments first. There's a lot of information already here.

おふろはありません means "there is no bathtub" or "a bathtub doesn't exist", not "it's no bathtub". This is because あります is the verb describing "existence" for inanimate objects, and ありません is the negative form of that. So, any variation of a sentence which refute the existence of specific bathtub/s or bathtubs in general should be acceptable.

On the other hand, I recommend thinking of おふろではありません as "changing the verb from ありません to ではありません" rather than simply "adding で". If we look back at the affirmative versions of these verbs, ありません → あります and ではありません → です, you'll see they are completely different. Unlike あります, です doesn't tell whether something exists or not. It tells you that something is the same as something else. For example: 私はジョンです means "I am John". In this sentence, whether or not "I" exist or "John" exists is completely irrelevant; the statement I'm making is that "I" = "John".

Likewise, in おふろはありません, the statement being made is that "it" != "a bathtub". So any variation of an English sentence that conveys that statement should be acceptable.

By the way, the reason we're talking about "it" is because the subject is typically dropped from Japanese sentences if it's already obvious through context. For example: if you ask me "what is it?", I could (rather unhelpfully) say [これ/それ/あれは]おふろではありません. On the other hand, if you asked "is there a bathtub?", I could say [おふろは]ありません. (The square brackets indicate what I could leave out and still be considered correct in Japanese).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RebekahMad1

For anyone looking for the kanji for ふろ: 風呂 (風=wind; 呂=spine) Neither of those kanji make any sense, but I thought I might as well provide their meanings anyway.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tangolulu85

I thought that ふろ was bath not bathtub


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/hippietrail

Bath and bathtub are the same in English. Maybe some dialects distinguish them, but not mine.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/John863934

Well, taking a bath and taking a bathtub are very different things.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BretS5

I thought 浴 yoku was bathtub....... and this would be washroom, so confused


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoshuaLore9

No, 浴槽 (よくそう) can be used to mean "bathtub", but that is kind of a formal, somewhat pretentious way to say it. お風呂 (おふろ) is significantly more common. It refers to the bathtub itself, but also more generally the room the bathtub is in.

浴 is seldom used by itself this way anyway; it's more commonly seen in the verb 浴びる (あびる) meaning "to bathe, to shower". It's also used in two-kanji words, many of which are associated with bathing, such as 入浴 (にゅうよく, "entering a bath") and 混浴 (こんよく, "mixed bathing").


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CottonAlpaca

hmmm i think it should be more これはおふろではありません..... Throught the rest of the exercise, ではありません was not used to indicate "it is" at all


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoshuaLore9

No, you're half right, in that ではありません is not used to indicate "it is" (because it is always used to indicate "is not"), but including これは means "this is not a bathtub".

Japanese relies heavily on context, so おふろではありません actually means "(the thing we've been talking about, and is so obvious to everyone in the conversation that I don't need to repeat it) is not a bathtub". Without any contextual/conversational information, the best we can do in English is "it" to represent some unspecified object.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Amawaku

What is the difference between おふろはありません and おふろではありません? Which one is the negation of what?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/heypano

So 「では」ありません is the more formal version of 「じゃ」ありませんwhich is the more formal version of 「じゃ」ない. All 3 of these mean "is not" and are the negation of です effectively. 「は」or「が」ありません ( or ない informally) mean "don't have/doesn't exist" and can be thought of as the negation of ある.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Amawaku

So "おふろない" would mean "There is no bathtub", and "おふろじゃない" translates as "This is not a bathtub" ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/xero11

Ok will someone please help me with this. Im so confused. I know what we're talking about, i know what words mean what but i for the life of me cant figure out the difference between there is, it is a , there isnt and it is not


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/PrismVelocity

Pay attention to the appearance/lack of では at the beginning of each verb.

です(desu) : "It is a -" {short for ではあります(dewa arimasu)}

ではありません(dewa arimasen) : "It is not a -"

あります(arimasu) : "There is a -" or "a ___ exists" or "he has a -"

ありません(arimasen) : "there isn't a -" or "a __ doesn't exist" or "he doesn't have a -"

Personally I think of the では as a particle meaning "as a", which I add to ありません to get a phrase meaning "it doesn't exist as a", which you can shorten further to "it is not a".

Edit: just making corrections to my last statement. Thank you John863934 for bringing it to my attention.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AshayDwivedi

So it necessary to add お for respect here. I didn't put that I got it wrong. In the "Translate: where is the room?", I put お and got it wrong. Must be a glitch


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoshuaLore9

It's not strictly "necessary", but for certain words in Japanese (typically those with significant cultural importance, like おふろ, お茶, お水, etc.) it's so strongly expected that it may as well be considered necessary. On the other hand, there are some words that just sound a little pretentious to add お to, unless you work in the service/hospitality industry, such as 部屋.

I would suggest flagging both for the course developers to fix because you're not wrong in both cases, but also be aware that おふろ and 部屋 (without the お) are the "standard" versions of these words.

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