"There is no bathtub."

Translation:お風呂はありません。

June 10, 2017

78 Comments
This discussion is locked.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DaymelGarc1

so why isnt it ふろではありません?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KeithWong9

For people really want to understand what で is underneath, it is one of the particle usage - "in/as a state of." So これはトイレです expands to これはトイレであります meaning "This exists as a concept/state of a toilet." In a more reader-friendly version, "This is a toilet."

Similarly, トイレではありません means "(This) does not exists as a concept of a toilet." The は in ではありません is a contrast marker particle stressing the negative fact.

トイレがあります means "A toilet exists." Note that the subject is different from トイレであります (implicitly これ is the subject - これは is omitted from the sentence). Using the same logic, トイレはありません is "A toilet does not exist." In other words, "There is no toilet."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Fran630920

I don't think I'm being able to get the whole で (de) deal. Sometimes in negation sentences lingo would include the simbol to pick and sometimes won't. Both times the sentence comes out fine with or without it. I'm thinking to myself で is just an adornment for negation sentences. This language has oh so many adornments.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KeithWong9

It would help me to help you if you can send me some concrete examples that you have come across. However I would like to stress again that, the で in ではありません is not an optional modifier to はありません. These two phrases have different meanings and should not be mixed up.

Let me give some more examples and hopefully it will help.

  • ごはんは ありません There is no rice.
  • ごはんでは ありません It is not rice.

  • 学校(がっこう)は ありません There is no school.

  • 学校では ありません It is not a school.
  • 学校には ありません It is not in school.

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Alyeku
  • 1850

Dear KeithWong9. Thank you so much fir all your many comments. The overwhelming majority appreciates them, as do I!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/igor300346

I really wish I could bookmark a comment so I would come back here whenever I'm not sure of which I should use.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/EricPooley

If you can open the comments in a browser, right clicking on the posting date (eg. "5 HOURS AGO" / "4 MONTHS AGO") gives you a link to the particular comment.

As of right now, KeithWong9's comment is:

2 YEARS AGO


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JordonGee

As i understand it, ではありません essentially is, it is not, it is something different, as はありません、is, it does not exist, there is none.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LyndisLegi

Screenshotting this comment. Thank you so very much!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoshuaSamu710073

I remember Cure Dolly saying that で is the connective form of だ. So to me, it makes sense to say that お風呂では ありません is the equivalent of お風呂だ (state of being a bathtub [is a bathtub]) plus ありません (is not). So all together is like (お風呂だ)は(ありません) or "As for being a bathtub, does not exist" or "It is not a bathtub". Is this a fair way to think about it?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AoMori89

Ah, thank you, thank you, thank you!

I've seen lots of explanations of the difference between desu and arimasu, and people talking about "existing", but the examples you gave here finally made it click for me. Screencapping this to add to my notes later.

ありがとうございます!

[Oct. 9, 2021]


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/_I-am-a-cat_

Could you say "今日は学校はありません" for "There is no school today"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KeithWong9

Yes you can. The point is that the 2nd は is used as stressing, not a topic marker. So only the 1st は is a topic marker.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AoMori89

(EDIT: I'll leave this up for posterity, but I immediately got corrected, sooo... Nevermind!)

No, but I'm also too new at this to tell you what's correct. ごめん!

But you have two は particles, which isn't allowed (meaning the sentence has two subjects).

今日は学校がありません might be correct (replacing the second は with a が), but I have no idea if that sounds correct to a native speaker.

Hopefully someone with more experience will weigh in on this.

[Oct. 18, 2021]


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KeithWong9

@AoMori89

You can assume the first は is the topic marker because a topic is normally put at the beginning of a sentence. If は is not used with the first phrase of a sentence, it is usually used as a contrast or stress marker.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AoMori89

@KeithWong9

Oh, wow. Ignore me, then, sorry! (‘◉⌓◉’)

I must have absorbed some bad info from earlier comment sections, then.

I had only ever read that there was a single は, even if には.

Does the listener assume the first one is the topic then? Or is it another "should be apparent from context" thing?

Thank you for your input!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AoMori89

@KeithWong9

Ah, okay. Thank you for the explanation. I appreciate it!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Mari4268789

Thanks that helped a lot :)))


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/pixelmoi

Very helpful. Thank you!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/elizadeux

According to A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar page 105, de (1) is "a particle that indicates location , except for location of existence."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BMGX4H

Ohhh, so if someone asks if you have a computer, and you don't have a computer, you answer with パソコンは ありません. But if you own an ancient tv set from 1960, and your friend had never seen one before and asks you if it's a computer, you answer with パソコンではありません. Is that right?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KeithWong9

Yes, you got it!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BMGX4H

Thanks for the help!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Yui-Su-Moa

Why is there an O before bathtub?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/EricPooley

For the same reason that there is an O before tea. It has become part of the word.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KeithWong9

お is NOT an honorific in this case. It is a beautifying prefix. (It is debatable though, please see this thread - you can't use only "honorific" to explain each use case.)

https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/51451810


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoshuaSamu710073

@KeithWong9 Oh sorry, I screwed up; I didn't know that. Thanks for the info. EDIT: I will delete my comment to avoid confusion.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jay.holzer

お風呂ではありません = It is not a bathtub お風呂はありません = There is no bathtub

The で comes from です "to be"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/EricPooley

Actually, technically, it is the other way around. です is a contraction of ではあります, which ではありません is the negative of. Other than that, you are correct


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Lazariusta

I asked the same thing before checking the comments, and it seems other people have too. Does anybody know the answer? And how would the inclusion of 'で' change the sentence meaning? Thanks.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mochiburrito

I believe it's because the sentence is, "There is no bathtub," instead of, "It is not a bathtub." ありません is the negative, polite verb for the existence of inanimate objects (ある), where ではありません is the negative, polite ending of です. Take this with a grain of salt, as I'm not entirely sure.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CharloBoie

So I am a bit late, but here is maybe an other way to explain it, and correct me if I'm wrong, because it is what I understood after doing many researches, and not something I know because I'm a master at japanese.

There is something, in japanese, called the "te form", which applies to verbs, and is used to link two verbs together: to say "and" in a sentence changes depending on what you want to link, and the "te form" is used to link two verbs in a sentence. Exemple : "My name is Sakura and I'm Japanese" would translate to 私の名前はさくらで日本人です。 Watashi no namae ha Sakura de Nihonjin desu. Basically, the "で" in this sentence is the "te" form of "desu". I could have said : 私の名前はさくらです、日本人です。 It would translate to "My name is Sakura, I am Japanese" An other example : ごはんを食べて水を飲みます。 Would mean "I eat rice and I drink water".

So if we analyze the sentence : So the verb "ある" means : to exist "は" is the particle は, meaning "in concern of, speaking of" お風呂はありません。 "Speaking of the bathtub, [it does'nt exist] it's not there" Final traduction would be "There is no bathtub"

So about the "で" : です is basically the closest thing there is to "to be" Let's do the sentence with the regular form of "to be" 風呂ですはありません。 So は still indicate the theme, meaning "in concern of", except the theme is not the bathtub anymore, it's the concept of a bathtub, like : "In concern of the being of a bathtub, [it does'nt exist] there is none"

But to be grammatically correct, you have to use the "te" form of the word, because we want to link the two verbs, so the sentence is a whole and not two entities. It's kind of as if we said "in concern of the being (existence) of a bathtub, [it does'nt exist] there is none" Final traduction would be : It is not a bathtub

So one is "no bathtub" in the sense of "there is no bathtub" and the other is "no bathtub" in the sense of "this not a bathtub". That's how I undertand it. You have to see it as adding "で", "to be" to the theme, so the theme changes from 風呂 (a bathtub) to 風呂で (the concept of a bathtub), and not like "は" changing to "では".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KeithWong9

Yes, we can think like that, but I avoid using です+ある to explain the で because です is a contraction of であります or でございます, so it turns out to be a recursive explanation.

Referring to the dictionary, である was a contraction of に (the continuative form of なり "to be") + て + あり, and にて became で which we see today. This matches with your observation. This で is similar to the following cases

  • これ大丈夫ですか
  • 全部五個です
  • 座ったまま聞きます

Normally these are classified in the dictionary as "marking a state, boundary, condition, etc." That's what I used to explain in the previous comment.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mark71692

I thought が is always use when using ある/いる


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YuriKalinin

It depends on what you want to say. は (topic) "the bathroom doesn't exist". が (subject) "this is not a/the bathroom".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ibelcic

So is トイレがありません the same as トイレではありません ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Nicofiesta

I think the first one means "There is no restroom" and second one means "This is not a restroom"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AlecTheKulak

Well then what would トイレはありません mean if トイレがありません meant "There is no restroom"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/L4nds

They both mean "There is no restroom" however in one sentence you are making restrooms the topic of conversation by using は.

The other sentence marked with が would be used when restrooms are a subject of the wider topic of conversation, eg. レストラン は トイレ が ありません - the restaurant has no restroom.

は and が are two key characters known as particles. Particles are fundamental to the Japanese language so I recommend finding some good learning material specifically on particles, it will really help with the rest of this Duolingo course, there are plenty of dedicated articles and videos around.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/EricPooley

From what I understand the distinction between 「はありません」 and「がありません」 is very subtle and doesn't really translate into English. In Japan the general usage is 「があります」 and「はありません」. Also 「はありますか」


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/rbenfield3

Earlier, when it said there is a bathroom, it used 'が'. Now, in the negative, it uses 'は'. Is there a rule about that?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ChristosZhu

I would like this to be answered as well. Here 'bathroom' is the subject, so が would have definitely been used for あります


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CatherinHodgso

Why do you need the o at the begining of the sentence?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Schmoo1976

The O makes certain nouns more polite, such as alcohol (o-sake instead of simply sake)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LexiJPGabi

i would like to have a better understanding of this. It seems 昼ご飯 (ひるごはん) also tends to be o-hiru-gohan, but why?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TyrantRC

If you are actually interested I recommend reading this article: https://www.japanesewithanime.com/2018/03/honorific-prefix-o-go.html

But in general you use these prefixes because the word is often times used with it and separating them will make it sound weird, or because you wanna be polite to the listener. In the particular case of ご飯 is just a phenomenon where the word is always said like that but if you see 飯 you will pronounce it with the kunyomi as in めし, for お昼ご飯 is adding the prefix to be polite, and 昼ご飯 sounds completely fine without the prefix.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/karntact

Another sentence was identical except it said ふろではありません instead of ふろありません . Sometim This contradicts a comment about では being needed to express negatives. Is saying では instead of で for negatives optional?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kai19154

The first sentence means "it's not a bathtub" and the second means "there isn't a bathtub".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Gabe629

Can someone explain to me what ありmeans?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CatZombies

ありis the stem of あります/ある which means "to have".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JohnBTrumpet

Technically, it means to exist; but in certain situations (especially with が) it can mean have.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/danfly09

あり at this level, nothing for you.

ある on the other hand is to be, to exist (non living objects).

あります is the present affirmative tense conjugation of ある verb.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/865.Ddvyw67NkEq1

Somehow the ふろwhich should be pronounced "fu ro" is being pronounced like "風呂" but not vice versa. So i thought that the tube itself is "風呂" but the bathroom or taking a bath is ふろ.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Peppisan

Hello I looked it up because I thought I was hearing ふろ as "fusho" and apparently depending where in japan you are it is pronounced differently. For example some pronounce ふろ as either "furo" or "fusho" and even "huro". Wild!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/averageteencuber

yea and the female voice pronounces it fujo, it's sorta a tad confusing


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Konim96

The one thing that confuses me here is the use of は instead of が. I know that in most cases が should go before ある or いる. At least that is how I was thought in my university.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TyrantRC

that's a terrible way to teach it, the difference between using が and は is how explicit the topic is and how much emphasis you want to put on the thing you are marking.

if you use は is to let the listener know that you are talking about that, usually is used when a conversation is starting, when you wanna change topic mid conversation or when you are just saying general statements.

For this example, I imagine the speaker is just stating a fact, maybe you are selling a house and you are telling the potential buyer お風呂はありません (as for a bathtub there is none). But let's say someone is asking you what's missing in the house (the topic is set, the house), so you mentally go on a list of the things that are there and you compare that with the ones that are not... and you say お風呂がありません (it's a bathtub that doesn't exist here), the が makes an emphasis on the thing in contrast with other things.

You can usually see が too when stating fact about a topic. If I wanna say for example you don't have a bathtub I say "コニンさんはお風呂がいません", because I need to be explicit that I'm talking about you, but if I wanna say I don't have one I just say お風呂はいません, because it's implicit that I'm talking about myself.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Conraduouou

do we always add 'o' at the beginning to make it polite?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KeithWong9

There are two types of usage with the honorifics お(御)/ご(御)/み(御)/おん(御)/ぎょ(御).

One is customary usage, where the described noun may or may not need to be honored. e.g. お箸(はし)"chopsticks"、お寺(てら)"temple"、ご飯(はん)"rice"、御曹司(おんぞうし)"son of a rich family"、御霊(みたま)"holy spirit"、御苑(ぎょえん)"emperor's garden"

Another usage is to honor the subject of the sentence. Note that it can be different from the listener, but with lack of context, we simply assume the listener is the subject of the sentence. e.g. お名前(なまえ) "your name"、お子(こ)さま "your child"、ご機嫌(きげん)"your mood"、御社(おんしゃ) "your company"、御意(ぎょい)"your will"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DavidBriag1

There is only the beach now... And I'm the lifeguard.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CoreB7

what's the difference between "お風呂はありません" and "お風呂ではありません"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Swisidniak

Make sure to check the comments,
お風呂があります - There is a bathtub
お風呂はありません - There is not a bathtub (a bathtub does not exist)

お風呂です - It is a bathtub
お風呂ではありません - It is not a bathtub (the state of being a bathtub does not exist)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sarumonkey

is "お風呂は無いです" correct?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Spence549511

Would anyone be able to explain thinking behind how these 2 kanji come to mean bathtub?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SupraStephen

I have stated both ways and it is telling me that both are wrong. I don't get it. お風呂はありません。and お風呂ではありません are not both wrong.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Swisidniak

There are two questions in this lesson that may appear to be the same but are actually different, and it is very common for learners to mix them up.

お風呂はありません is "There is no bathtub" or "there is not a bathtub" more literally say "a bathtub does not exist". This would be the correct answer for this specific question.

お風呂ではありません is "It is not a bathtub" more literally "the state of being a bathtub does not exist"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hexans

Why use を before ふろ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Swisidniak

the direct object particle を (wo) is not used here.
お (o) is an honorific prefix often used for word beautification; this can be used to add a level of politeness or show respect. It is often found on words of cultural significance (such as お風呂 'bath', which was traditionally done in temples to cleanse the body and spirit. From there private baths were introduced as a luxury item only wealthy nobles could afford to have)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AisakaTaiga2

Why can't we use like お風呂がありますか?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Swisidniak

That would be a question, "Is there a bathtub?"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AlanClover69

Why theres an "o" before the sentece?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/EricPooley

It is part of the word for bathtub, お風呂.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BIG.zee

So where will I rub-a-dub-dub???

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