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"中学生たち"

Translation:Middle school students

June 12, 2017

84 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jim90032

I wish it would explain that when you click on it and not just tell you that it means 'stand'.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/hollt693

Duolingo actually confuses itself by not using kanji. 立ち(tachi) comes from 立つ(tatsu), meaning "to stand", but the "tachi" in 中学生たち is 達, which pluralizes the noun. If Duolingo used kanji, they would never tell you that 達 means "stand", because it doesn't. Without kanji, たち could have either meaning depending on syntax and context (two things Duo's tips don't recognize often enough).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoshuaLore9

Yes, and no. I agree with you that Duo's tips are often confusing and even misleading because they don't account for context, but 達 is very seldom written in kanji. So in this case, they've done the right thing. The confusion does stem from them not using kanji with 立つ though.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnaLydiate

I disagree that the kana is confusing - you would not confuse the suffix ~達 with the verb 立ちます. One is a suffix attached to the end of certain nouns (humans and animals) and the other is a verb. Take this sentence for instance 学生たちは たちました - there's no way you'd confuse the tachi attached to the end of gakusei with the tachi of the verb tachimasu. What I do agree with however is how Duo tips mixes up homonyms and often tells you the wrong meaning - that is definitely annoying. Not sure what can be done about that. I'm thinking it would be difficult to create a program to instinctively know which homonym is supposed to mean what. Maybe it would be possible using the context of the sentence and whether it is attached to a noun or is a verb.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TakakoKumagai

たち,達,in 中学生たち,中学生達,are not at all different from 立ち,太刀,though all of these such as たち、達、太刀、館 are both pronounced as "tachi".

達,たち in chuugakusei tachi means plural.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnaLydiate

たかこさん, yes they Do sound the same (that is what homonym means - words that sound the same), but they do not mean the same thing. No one is saying that they don't sound the same, in fact people are complaining about this very fact!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Robbadob

I agree, but I would like to clarify that they aren't homonyms, they're homophones.

homonym (same name) : words that are spelt the same but pronounced differently
homophone (same sound) : words that are pronounced the same but spelt differently

Not that it matters, I just like pointing stuff like this out :p [2019/03/22]


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnaLydiate

Actually homonym means words that either sound OR are spelled the same way but have different meanings and may also have different origins eg. Have pride in your work and pride of lions.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/NicoToneff

And whats worse is they gave me stand as a multiple choice word to pick from lol ٩(๑òωó๑)۶


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/shukal_punit

W-what? Stando da?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Schizo_Rhino

中 means middle I assume? Is this in any way related to 中国 in meaning, like "middle country" or something?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ThinkBlueCount2

Yes, that's what China calls itself because way back when China was the center of the Asian world, more or less.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Rushiu

That is "China" in Kanji (or Hanzi) and means central kingdom, and was introduced because China was the biggest empire in the region.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Shariban

Yes. Or Center country, or Inside Country.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/allison.hu2

The full name of 中国 in Chinese is 中华人民共和国, short for 中国 (zhong1 guo2)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/envylol

What mean tachi?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kreyvarr

It is a plural form modifier for pronouns. Ex: わたし (I/Me) + たち = We


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/jamesjiao

Just a correction. It doesn't just modify pronouns. It can be used to modify nouns (only nouns that imply people as far as I know).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoshuaLore9

Just a correction ;) It can be used to modify nouns for living things, not just people. ワンちゃんたち for example, means "the dogs".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Amawaku

Why isn't there the Kanji 犬 in your phrase ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnaLydiate

犬 isn't used because that is the kanji for いぬ, whereas ワンちゃん is a slang/informal term for dog based on the sound of the dog's bark. In Japan the sound of a dog's bark is  ワン!ワン! (in English it is woof! woof! or arf!). Hence ワンちゃん is another, less formal way of saying dog, arguably like saying doggie in English.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dagaminglife

Just a correction ;3 it can be used for non living things as well


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/_XxAntonxX_

Thank you very much.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnaLydiate

tachi is a suffix added to nouns (living things only ie. people and animals) which indicates plural or one or more of whatever it is added to the end of eg. Watashi - I, Watashitachi - we etc


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Romanski

Does Japanese have clusivity?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoshuaLore9

That's an interesting question! I believe Japanese doesn't explicitly have clusivity, as in the inclusive and exclusive "we" doesn't have different forms, but it can sometimes be easily (and strongly) implied by word choice. For example: the exclusive and inclusive words for "our company" are 当社 (とうしゃ) and 我社 (わがしゃ), respectively.

It can also be implied through the use of keigo, with verb being changed to the kenjougo, or humble, form for the exclusive case and the sonkeigo, or respectful, form for the inclusive case.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Keith439129

What about plants?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BridgetKra2

It makes "student" into "students", giving it the plural form


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KeliomerCa

I shouldn't get a miss for adding an article before the words...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/fionnalin

I agree -- depends on the context!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/02bookworm04

Honestly though I find this quite difficult because where I'm from, elementary school is primary school and Middle school is secondary school. We have junior college and college (also known as university) but can't translate accurately sometimes because im not sure if 高学 means high school or university. And what is 大学? If that's university, why is it that duolingo had once said that 高学 meant that??


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnaLydiate

I think you're getting mixed up with 高校(こうこう) which means High school. That I have seen Duolingo has never had 高学 - even when I type it in with my Japanese keyboard it doesn't suggest these two kanji together which is probably a clue that they don't go together or that this is not a word. 大学(だいがく means university. I'm not sure where you live but I'm guessing that Japanese middle school is probably years 7-9. Here in NZ we have Primary school - this goes up to year 6 and then Intermediate years 7 and 8 (although sometimes Primary schools go up to year 8) and then High school is years 9-13.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnaLydiate

It's odd that the suffix tachi is taught here - it's rarely used and is pretty much obsolete since verb endings don't indicate person.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Berto29441

Sorry. I don't understand. If the verbs don't give the person/persons, a suffix - indicating if we are speaking about one or more persons/things - could be useful (at least for foreign people as we are), is not "odd". . This outside the fact that the tachi be frequently or not used.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnaLydiate

It IS odd if you know Japanese. Teaching -tachi so early on and putting such emphasis on it makes it seem like its important which would make people in turn think that it is frequently used. It's not. Japanese is a language highly dependent on context.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Berto29441

Thanks for the kind reply, but if I don't know 日本語, you don't know... duolingo: for this programme to put a bare sentence outside any context, it is not an exception: it's the rule. And despite this having been said in all languages, nothing changes.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnaLydiate

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. That I don't know Japanese? I'm not doing the lessons to learn the language - I decided to do the Japanese lessons for a laugh to see what they'd be like. Already fluent. Duolingo's approach is....interesting. The lessons seem to move at a fast pace and while it's good to familiarise people with kanji early on so they get used to it probably not so good when kanji and the Japanese writing systems are not explained at all. (I like to call them writing systems because I think this is a more accurate description - for me alphabet refers to the roman characters (a, b, c) and the Greek alphabet (α, β, γ) that the English alphabet is derived from. I think it's a good idea to learn kana first in the lines and order that they appear in a wa-ei jisho. Apparently, this is how Japanese children learn Japanese and it makes it easier when you learn more about verbs later on and especially for knowing how to quickly conjugate verbs - not just for tense but for different levels of speech - polite, informal, commands etc.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnaLydiate

Berto - contest means a competition. I think you mean context. Context can mean things that are implied eg. when we can rightly presume that the subject of the sentence is the speaker and so the subject of the sentence is "I" or if asking someone else a question then the subject of the sentence is "you" - this even if it is not overtly clear - we can still make an accurate guess. Things left unsaid can be context too eg. if the sentence doesn't specify that the subject is s/he, they, a friend, your uncle, a cat then we can guess that the subject must be I (the speaker). Context can also be (as you stated) other information in the sentence.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnaLydiate

You kept using contest even though it was clear that you meant context so I thought I should point it out.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Berto29441

You had written "Japanese is a language highly dependent on context", meaning - I suppose - that out of contest the sentence can be not clear or easily badly translated. I replied that in duolingo this happens very frequently in any language, so that is frustrating. Kanji means "Chinese characters" from which also the present syllabic double "alphabets" have derived. The fact that the first two thousand kanji are taught in the complete cycle of primary schools means that they can be "nice", but not so easy to learn!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnaLydiate

When I said it was highly dependent on context I meant that Japanese doesn't bother stating something that is obvious, for example - if you are talking to someone and you don't specifiy a subject then the person you're talking to can safely assume that you're talking about yourself unless you specify otherwise or if you ask a question - if you ask a question then you're clearly asking the person that you're talking to : )


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Berto29441

With your sentence I understand a different thing. ("contest" means what is "around" the sentence, not the sentence itself)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Berto29441

You are perfectly right, but by writing "contest" I was thinking of "context", as I had written a line above.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Berto29441

Strange the words. Context comes from "contextus". English maintained the "x", Italian changed it in "s" (context = contesto). Contest, from L. "contestari", does not have direct correspondence in I. ("contestare" means to put in question the legitimacy of something)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnaLydiate

Yes - you can contest someone's claim for instance. You can also have a contest/competition to see who is the best at something. Different words with different meanings that sound the same probably taken from different languages like Latin and Italian but have the same root origin. English is a really bastardised language my friend.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Gabe_LeMec

Why does this have down-votes? Can someone explain a counter-position if it's not right? (Thanks, Ana!) :-)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoshuaLore9

I'm not one of those down-voters Gabe, but reading Ana's post, I can see why people might.

First of all, let me say that I agree with her opinion that it's odd to introduce たち at this stage of the course. I, like her, did not come here to learn but rather was simply curious about the approach Duo would take (and how far they could go), and have found it quite odd indeed.

However, at least in my experience, to say that the -たち suffix is rarely used is a bit of an exaggeration, which seems somewhat hypocritical for someone who is concerned with people getting the wrong idea about the word's frequency. Perhaps it is used more frequently in a school setting, which I am more familiar with, but it is by no means "rare" in my opinion.

I also don't understand what she means by "obsolete since verb endings don't indicate person". To my knowledge, "obsolete" means "serving no additional purpose". Clearly, たち does what verb endings do not and therefore it is definitionally not obsolete, though her argument seems to be that Japanese people tend not to specify person thus rendering たち obsolete? I would say that the utility of たち is independent of verb endings (and associated subject/person assumptions) since it is appended to nouns, which can behave as the object, complement, target, etc.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/touhoku

Actually, the word ''tachi'' is quite rarely used. If you want to talk about plural, you canunderstand by context. ''-tachi'' is used when refering to a specific group of people, not a thing in general.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoshuaLore9

Like I said in my comment,

in my experience, to say that the -たち suffix is rarely used is a bit of an exaggeration

("In my experience", by the way, means two years living and working in Japan, six years dating and being married to a Japanese native speaker, and about five of those years being mistaken for a native Japanese speaker (because of my Asian heritage and Japanese ability) by every Japanese person I've met - they often don't realise until I've introduced myself by name or the topic of one's hometown comes up.)

But in case you don't believe me, I've found this definition which includes this note about its usage:

〔古くは敬意を含み、神や貴人にだけ付いた。現在では「ども」「ら」のような見下した感じはないが、「かた」ほどの敬意はなく、普通、尊敬すべき人にはつけない〕

Which makes no mention of its supposed rarity. Rather, it says that it was used honorifically in the past, but nowadays it's just normal and something you don't use for people deserving of respect.

You're right that -たち is used when referring to a specific group, but that rarely happens, right? *sarcasm*


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnaLydiate

It must be because they're all such てんさい when it comes to 日本語 Gabe-LeMec. I'm afraid like with many things online the same applies here - Don't read the comments! ;) Bunch of people spouting stuff about something they know nothing about. Or perhaps it's my 873 lingots?? :P


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Berto29441

I wrote "student", singular: why is it considered wrong? Thanks for a reply.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Flviodomin3

It is because the "tachi", it is the plural form, ex: 私(わたし)= I, 私達(わたしたち)= we.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Berto29441

Sorry! Looking at the three kanji, I didn't read the "tachi". Thank you again


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Adelheid_G

Is it NOT just 'middle school students' is is specifically a group of middle school students. You CANNOT use 中学生たち to refer to middle school students in general. Bad Duolingo.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TakakoKumagai

中学生たち is not incorrect, you we could say 中学生たち describing junior high school students and middle school students. You may also say 彼らは中学生when you say they are junior high school students. It is that you do not always have to say 中学生たち just because 中学生たち are plural in English. In Japanese there are many cases plural things and persons are not so strict to be plural forms as you can say "私たちは中学生" saying "We are students."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TakakoKumagai

I have long thought of 中学生 as a junior high school student.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ErinRose987943

Whats the difference between using the word junior high and using middle school. Isn't the same?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/joshmich1

In different parts of the united states the two differ based on which grades and how many for example my jr high was 7-8 but my wife's middle was 6-8. As far as I know, junior high is not recognized in Japan, only middle school.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoshuaLore9

Actually, it's the other way around. "Junior high school" is the widely recognized translation of 中学校 in Japan. I would know, I worked in one for two years ;)

In Japan, 小学校 is 1-6, 中学校 is (actually 1-3 again) 7-9, and 高校 is (again, 1-3) 10-12.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/TakakoKumagai

I once hear or they say junior high are in USA and middle school in Britain Is this not correct?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/John757154

Junior high us very common, but middle school is being used more and more it seems.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/_lamwing

i am confused about the pronunciation...i rmb that 学 is gaku right? but in this context i don't really think that's what I heard...or was it my ears?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnaLydiate

You're probably getting confused because the 'g' sound in Japanese is more like a nasal 'ng' sound. Lots of sounds from other languages don't look how they are spelt in English. It's usually because we don't have an equivalent sound in English and the person transcribing the language into English has done their best to convey the sound in the nearest sounding equivalent in English - does this make sense? Another example of this is the v sound in voy a comprar for instance (Spanish). It's more like a sound in between the English v and b sound but closer to b, but you can't really convey that with the English alphabet.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/_lamwing

Thanks for your explanation...actually my native language (Cantonese) does have the consonant /ng/ so I can hear that in this context it sounds more like ng...so I am wondering if there are instances when the /g/ sound does sound more like /g/? (sorry if this sounds confusing)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnaLydiate

Yes - it sounds like a hard g at the beginning of a word.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/_lamwing

Great thanks! So I assume I should use a /g/ when it's in the beginning but /ng/ whenever it is in the middle? Also I would like to ask, 学 standing alone we would produce /gaku/, but when it is 学生 the /u/ sound seems to be reduced? Is that true?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnaLydiate

I think it's less that the sound is reduced and more that it's a natural result of speaking quickly/natural speed for a fluent speaker. This is so for any language.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/_lamwing

i later found out there are rules for vowel reduction in Japanese (母音の無声化)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/earnestbadger

What is middle school in Japan? We don't have that in my country (not English speaking)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/_lamwing

should be the first three years of secondary school (Form 1-3/Secondary 1-3 whatever your country calls it), or if your country doesn't count it this way, Grade 7-9


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KentAllen5

When do you use たち and わたしたち ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AnaLydiate

Not sure what you are asking. ~たち is a suffix that indicates plural. It is used for humans and animals (ie. living creatures).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoshuaLore9

Adding to what @AnaLydiate said, たち is a suffix that indicates plural, so when you attach it to わたし, which means "I/me", it changes it to the plural form "we/us".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/--Monalisa--

What's the difference between Secondary school and Middle school?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoshuaLore9

I guess it depends where you're from and what flavo(u)r of English you use.

I'm Australian and to me, "secondary school" describes any schooling after primary/elementary school but before university, i.e. grades 8-12, while "middle school" are only the first three years after primary/elementary school, i.e. grades 7-9 in a K-12 school.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/StephenBre497907

Wouldn't the singular "middle school student" also be correct?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JoshuaLore9

No, たち specifies the plural.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Nawm_D_Ploom

Does anyone have a way to remember the differences in schools (elementary school, middle school, high school, and college)? I have trouble with this.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AdamScott794079

That first character starts off china AND means inside. Huh.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/EeyoreIsRight

Yep.

中 has a very general meaning of "in", "inside", "middle", or "center". Therefore, the etymology of China's name, 中国, in that sense, would basically boil down to "central country" or something of the like. So while it is weird, it still makes sense in a way.

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