"日よう日にしぶやでかいものをしました。"

Translation:I went shopping in Shibuya on Sunday.

June 14, 2017

36 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/yoitsbilly

Worse than half kanji, a kanji hiragana kanji sandwich. Is it really helpful to write it this way? Surely furigana or parentheses are possible.

June 24, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tanshin

Haha, a kanji sandwich. I'm hungry for context.

June 26, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kaens

You seem to keep complaining on every opportunity, I see :D, but consider this: you start learning a language by ear, and only then you dive into the kanjis (and spend years doing that in school). Some native speakers never even manage to learn English right, their just writing it too get the meaning across. Does it really sound that far-fetched, then, that a lot of people would struggle with the harder kanji, as well? This is just like a lot of school textbooks in Japan. Duolingo course is really sincerely basic.

June 24, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/yoitsbilly

Which is why I brought up furigana or using parentheses. Japanese does not use spaces but instead relies on common particles and Kanji to delineate the various parts of a sentence. Not only would it be easier to read for all levels but would also help beginners start to visualize the structure of a sentence.

June 25, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kaens

Well, you just wrote yourself an answer! The common particles に, で, を are all here for you in this line, doing their job as they're meant to, and よう doesn't look like one of them in this case; what seems to be the problem?

Oh and furigana is always a big bother to program, so maybe there's that w

June 25, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/darkwinx

If kanji is not used, particles are useless as space. It if difficult to distinguish between particle and part-of-word character.

June 25, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kaens

No, no they aren't useless, and they aren't spaces, either, what xD It really does happen all the time in Japanese that you don't see kanji in a text, that's normal.

As a long time Japanese speaker, allow me to assure you that you get used to it fast. Just be a bit more open to the ways other languages work, aight?

June 25, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/yoitsbilly

I challenge you to find me a text including a Kanji sandwich similar to this. Even children's picture books would opt to write the entire word in hiragana. You simply don't break up these units. For example, it is thinkable to write 日ようび but not this form because ようび is considered it's own unit. And if you have read any of those children's books, you would notice that they often actually include spaces to make it easier to read.

Sentences written entirely in hiragana are also often stylized with line breaks etc (for example a movie poster slogan.)

For a self proclaimed long time Japanese speaker you seem quite misinformed. I would argue you are the one being ignorant of how other languages work, not the other poster. If you want to justify this style of writing, there might be an argument, but it is certainly not that this is normal practice. If Duolingo is going to opt to include Kanji, they should do it properly. I think this current implementation is very unnatural and at best unhelpful, at worst counterproductive.

June 26, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/J1K

I don't find it the least bit counterproductive the way Duolingo has implemented the particles.

I am in this for the grammar exercises, almost every other tool or assumes too much specific kanji knowledge too early.

Keeping the spacing as it is forces me to evaluate and judge the particle and word delineations myself.

Additionally, I find it's aiding memorizing and conjugating the vocabulary.

Would furigana be nice? Sure. But considering the difficulty of implementation, I don't need it in a first draft of DuoLingo's Japanese course.

June 27, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kaens

Okay, my fault getting all personal up there, sorry about that. Serves me right to have so many downvotes >_> We could continue this discussion in Japanese if that's what it takes to convince you... Regardless, I have seen this sort of thing in use a lot, which is why I'd like to keep pushing my point that it is, in fact, normal, precisely because it's seemingly so foreign to, well, foreigners, and for the sake thereof.

Which brings us to the challenge. Have you tried this? https://www.google.com/search?q=%22%E6%97%A5%E3%82%88%E3%81%86%E6%97%A5%22& Granted, Google is infamous for showing different people different results, but I hope 30k results including "kodomo-kotoba.info", "weblio", and several ~normal person~ blog records are legit enough for you :) Indeed, you can also see "日ようび" if you look around, but at Duolingo, they're less trying to make it easier to handwrite or make it look girlish, but more to use the kanjis already used before where applicable.

I can't say much regarding the objective productivity of the approach chosen; greater minds have been in struggle over in Japan introducing the language to their kids over the last half-century (not sure how things were before the big reform), and everyone seems to berate the current Japanese education incessantly (we all know best of all about their English skills, for one!). We'll likely see if this course works out or not on the relevant discussion thread!

June 26, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Tara166383

This is a really weak argument, honestly. Understanding of kanji is key to learning Japanese as a whole language. Expecting to only learn to hear and speak it is a little short-sighted. Not to mention, I find as I learn more kanji and kanji radicals, the better my understanding of and ability to memorize vocabulary words become.

June 28, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kaens

And that's why they do have kanjis in this, believe me, very basic course, after all! You can't say they don't have some :>

To expound, you're expected to go way above and beyond this course, including all the kanji people tend to use, maybe some they don't in modern times, many that are only ever used in proper nouns; you'll be seeing kanji and different words in furigana, the exact same words in different kanji for the sake of some obscure and/or historical nuance, jukugo, puns, a clunky scientific or patent Japanese, phrases or grammar from old Japanese fo' dat classical feel homie, niche terminology, hentaigana, net slang, words that only one of tens popular dictionaries will have listed (never with English), and tons of other things you'll stumble upon that'll make parts of Japanese incomprehensible for you until you learn how to deal with them. And every one of them will be important enough for you. With all due respect for Duolingo's approach, nobody ever thinks it'll be enough — or nobody ever should.

June 28, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ewolwil

ふりがなは普通外国人であっても日系人であっても日本語の勉強の重要なツールだと思います。言語の勉強を手伝おうとするDuolingoのチームはふりがなぐらいプログラミングできるはずです。漢字には全く興味のない人のためには「ひらがな・漢字モード」の設定とかあったらいいと思います。

ところでさっきのweblioのリンクの「日よう日」は小説の作品名ですからカエンスさんの主張とあまり関係ないと思います。

そもそもカエンスさんはどうしてふりがなに反対でしょうか?「日曜日」をふりがなと一緒に書く方が「日よう日」より初心者にとってずっといいと思います。

November 24, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/hollt693

But 曜 is one of the easiest kanji I've ever learned, simply because it has only one reading/meaning, unlike so many kanji that mean a bajillion different things. There's no good reason Duolingo shouldn't include it.

February 5, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ApfelLiebe

Kaens, a lot of text books in Japan use that small uppercase furigana on top of kanji, and sometimes normal books or newspapers etc., also use it for more difficult kanji. Seeing kanji with that small upper case furigana on top is the most helpful and common way of learning. I can write はな and はな, but can you tell I wrote "nose" and "flower" if I am not using kanji? There are tons of similar examples and some would be really difficult to tell apart even in a sentence together.

January 1, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sara-aubrey

I agree, it's painful to read at times.

June 24, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/avidrucker

Actually this is pretty common in Japan for native speakers learning Japanese. Though I agree, furigana would be more esthetically pleasing, it could also be a potential crutch/distraction (like romanji can be). Renshuu.org has a better approach in this regard, giving you the choice to turn both furigana and new/unfamiliar kanji on/off.

July 4, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IsolaCiao

As someone who works with young Japanese children, 日よう日 looks completely natural to me. You'll often see "よう日" written on the chalkboard in preschools, kindergartens, and the lower elementary grades. What kanji children learn is set by grade level. Textbooks and graded readers usually only contain the kanji that the children at that grade level should know, resulting in a lot of hiragana-kanji franken words.

It makes sense to me to have the kanji gradually introduced. I will say that I don't quite understand the order that the course has chosen, and I do agree that furigana can be helpful.

April 14, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Israndiel2

It is helpful. Those, like me, who only learned English before tend to learn the grammar and vocab first. Hiragana and katakana was taught first, and a limited vocab with them, kanji where necessary (although I'm a little miffed with "かみ" meaning paper, hair, and god as well...).

Anyway, those, like you, who already learned with a different method must be a bit confused, but those, who learn Japanese here for the first time must find this extremely useful -not to mention easier. This is neither a children's book, nor a full-blown coursebook. This is duolingo -half play, half serious language learning. People get used to some of the kanjis, and we can learn faster than either by writing completely hiragana, or learning every freaking kanji by trying to figure it out ourselves (!!!) how to learn it. Don't judge duolingo by other standards please.

December 31, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/darthoctopus

日曜日に渋谷で買い物をしました

July 26, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ichigotchi

And Neku shopped there 21 days in a row.

August 13, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/calebsymmonds

I can't say "at Shibuya"?

November 11, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sora_Japan

I'm not sure but Shibuya is not narrow area.

November 11, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/November-06

Why is "in" used here instead of "at"? What are the rules in using で?

March 19, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/IsolaCiao

Shibuya is a "special ward" which you can think of as a borough or a city. We use "in" with boroughs (I went shopping in Queens) and with cities (I went shopping in New York).

April 14, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Roxcon8

I'm curious about this too. ;;

April 14, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/EquanimousLingo

こんなにくだらない口喧嘩ばかりするよりお前ら黙って勉強しろ!

July 13, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kaens

余計なお世話ですwくだらないとも言い切れませんし。

July 13, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Zackarotto

I thought it was "kaimono ni ikimasu", go shopping, not "kaimono wo shimasu", do shopping? Interchangeable?

November 30, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/fa1046

Using "よう" instead of the kanji form "曜" is sometimes acceptable in Japan, because the kanji form could be hard to read when it is printed among many other characters in paragraphs. The same goes to words like ガン(癌, cancer).

February 26, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ShinKuroShi

Shouldn't "last Sunday" also be accepted?

March 15, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/KMosuzu

It could be 'last Sunday', yes. If you talk with your friend and say にちようびにXXしました。then your friend will assume that is about last Sunday because you usually do not talk about other past Sunday without specifying it. It is the same as in English, I guess.

September 2, 2018

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/LimeGreenTeknii

Shibuya! What what? Shibuya roll call!

June 14, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sora_Japan

LimeGreenTeknii Shibuya is fun city!

January 2, 2018
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