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  5. "Ich mag keinen dieser Hüte."

"Ich mag keinen dieser Hüte."

Translation:I do not like any of these hats.

March 5, 2013

37 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JackBond

The way of thinking of it that makes sense to me is to say "I like not one hat out of these hats."

The understood "hat" is what makes the accusative "keinen" masculine, and is the actual thing being "possessed" by the group of hats.

So this sentence can be thought of as "Ich mag keinen Hut dieser Hüte."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Didi126622

I am lucky we also have that kind of sentences in slovenian. Ne maram nobene od teh kap. I mean we also use these cases like accusative and that and I can imagine that easier.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Guodlca

But slovenian uses the "od" preposition (meaning [none] "of" [these hats]). In the German example, no preposition was used.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ashwin1985

I would never in a million years have understood this sentence if it weren't for this^^^ Thank you!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/rkaup

Why is "keinen" used over "keine" when "Hüte" is plural?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/bilbo

Think of 'kein' as meaning 'none', as in 'not one'. So you're saying something like 'I like not one of these hats'.

In English this used to be the same but is changing, more purist types would say 'none of these hats is any good' ('is' implying that 'none' is singular), but more often people say 'none of these hats are any good' ('are' implying 'none' is plural)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/rkaup

So "dieser Hüte" is in genitive case, and "keinen" is taking the gender of a single "Hüte" . I'm guessing "I like none of these books." would translate to "Ich mag kein dieser Bücher."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/quis_lib_duo

"keinen" is accusative as the whole phrase "keinen dieser Hüte" is the direct object of "mag (nicht)".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Danmoller

Well, when talking about kein as an independent pronoun (standing by itself, pointing to nothing in the sentence), as suggested here, it will follow the declension table without removing the "es"

"kein Buch" would become "keines"

Ich mag keines dieser Bücher

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_declension#Indefinite_articles.5B2.5D


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/cadilhac

My German friends concur: it is NOT Ich mag kein dieser Bücher but Ich mag keines dieser Bücher (or, more colloquially, keins).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Danmoller

I think quis_lib_duo tried to say:

"keinen" is accusative, because it is the main part of the whole phrase "keinen dieser Hüte", which is the direct object of the sentence.

Now "dieser Hüte" (which is not the whole object) is genitive.

  • keinen = accusative (main element of the object)
  • dieser Hüte = genitive (complement of "keinen")

https://www.duolingo.com/profile/OgnjenG.

So who is right, you or quis_lib_duo who clearly stated that in this example keinen is accusative of the whole phrase?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/UniversalDope

Like your profile picture good job bro!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/25carpe

The declension of "klein" for a plural noun is always "-en" no matter what the case.

see: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kein#Declension

Another way to think of it is that "kein" counts as a type of indefinite article. And the declension of an indefinite article or possessive pronoun in the plural is always "-en".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/-Copernicus-

It's not always "-en"-- your source doesn't even support that; for plural, "kein" only takes "-en" in the dative ("Ich mag keine Hüte").

But "keinen" isn't plural in this sentence anyway"; it's singular masculine accusative, as several of the comments above state.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/ronygozes

This one caught me off guard. After reading the other comments (Thanks for all the other commentators), this is the best explanation I have come up with : Kein can be treated as a pronoun, but for understanding it's place in this sentence, it's easier to think of it as a noun (even though grammatically wrong), meaning 'not one' or 'none'. Therefore the sentence can be divided into three parts : Ich mag, keinen, dieser hüte. In this structure the keinen is the direct object and therefore takes the accusative case. Although the 'dieser hüte' part, which can be translated as "of the hats", doesn't show real possession, it does describe the belonging (or in this case not belonging) to the group of hats, and hence takes the genitive case. To figure out the gender of keinen, remember that the expression 'not one' takes a singular noun which is in this sentence 'Hut'- masculine . Therefore the pronoun should also be declined as singular, masculine. Hope I helped a bit☺


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JackBond

I think you're exactly right. In fact, I just had a realization from a different phrase I learned that I think in this context, this standalone kein- word is declined with totally standard declension-- that is to say, it's not treated like an ein- word or even a strong attributive adjective. It gets the standard ending for everything like so

Masc, Fem, Neut, Plural
Nom: keiner, keine, keines, keinen
Gen: keines, keiner, keines, keiner
Dat: keinem, keiner, keinem, keinen
Acc: keinen, keine, keines keinen

(Sorry, don't know how to make clean tables)

And the gender depends on what noun WOULD have followed the word. In this case it's masculine for Hut, as you said.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/az_p
Mod

    Why is keinen used for plurals in nominative and accusative? That part of the pattern seems to be the only exception to this following the definite article declension pattern. If that applied completely, those combinations would use keine.

    [EDIT: I've learned enough by now to confidently say those must be typos in JackBond's post.]


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Clownsuits

    My first thought upon seeing your chart was 'kein takes an e in the nominative and accusative.' Then I saw that you clarified that you weren't giving them ein endings. Unfortunately, I don't know what you mean by "the standard ending for everything."


    https://www.duolingo.com/profile/az_p
    Mod

      It seems to be "the ending that the definite article would have".

      Whenever you have something in front of a noun that gets inflected, it has to somehow show the gender - that's the purpose of all the strong/weak/mixed stuff. Using the definite article (der/die/das/den/dem) is the most concise way to satisfy the need to show gender - it's always complete to simply say "[der/etc] [X]".

      So what that kein- table shows is that when kein- is completely replacing a noun (possible when the actual noun is implied through conversational context, or as in the example of this sentence that sort of lazily leaves it out to avoid being repetitive), it is inflected as the definite article would be in that situation.

      This is, as already pointed out, different to its usual behaviour when the noun is present, where in some cases and genders you can use the 'endingless' kein. When there's no noun, it must always have an ending.


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Clownsuits

      But the -en ending doesn't match with plural declination of definite article. I assumed it would be der because it precedes a genitive plural. However, others say it's accusative since it follows mag. Definite article of plural accusative is die. So his kein table follows the assumption that others mentioned, that there is an implied "Hut?" ich mag keinen Hut dieser Hüte? That seems to be the only way I could make sense of this.


      https://www.duolingo.com/profile/az_p
      Mod

        Exactly.

        Think of it as "I like no hat of these hats".

        Then you see that you need to use "I like [accusative]". "No hat of these hats" is one concept, collectively in accusative. Of course this can be further broken down into "[accusative] of [genitive]" in this example.

        The accusative part is "no hat", which means it's accusative male singular (den) which requires that we use keinen when shortening it to leave out the noun.

        The plural is only in the genitive part, so doesn't affect the inflection of kein- --> keinen.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Omri506711

        Why is this sentence in genitive? It sounds to me like it should be accusative.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Jeremy_McGraw

        If it were just "Ich mag diese Hüte nicht [I don't like these hats]", you would be correct that it is accusative, but because of the "none of"/"any of" it is genitive.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Renate79

        Here's what's confusing me about the genitive case in German: There seem to be different kinds of changes to the noun (e.g., Hut), an adjective (e.g., schwartz), a definite article (der/die/das), an indefinite article (ein/eine), a possessive pronoun (mein/dein, etc.), a demonstrative pronoun (dies, etc.) and the whatever-it's-called negative article (kein/keine).

        I'm a native English speaker so use simply the apostrophe + "s" (with possessive pronouns that change according to the "owner" rather than the "owned"). I've learned French and Spanish, where any word attached to a noun agrees with the noun. I'm confused by which of the above words decline to genitive--why, in this case, "kein" takes an accusative form instead of the genitive, whereas "dies" and "Hut" take the genitive form.

        Can someone point me to a good site for giving an overview of this issue?


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Mick_P

        Because the verb "mögen" needs/ is causing the accusative. Welches/Welchen/Welche/Was davon magst du? lt. transl. as "Which/What of that do you like?" Ich mag keinen dieser Hüte. Another example: Ich mag keines dieser Bücher (keines= akk. sg. neuter.) Other examples (with ""haben) Ich habe das Beste aller Autos. (This would sound odd because a naitive German would just say: Ich habe das beste Auto) But this sentence is a good example to teach grammer even though it does sound "bescheuert" and doesn't make a lot sence...

        So the English translation would be : I have/own the best (one) of all cars... If you would put "das Beste" into genitive (des Besten) you would say something like that: I have/own OF the best of all cars. That sounds wrong in English as well.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/2200Lucia60

        If I apply the grammar of this sentence to a femminin object, I suppose in german, you say "Ich mag KEINE diesER Orangen". Stimmt das? Vielen Dank.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sarefo
        Mod
        Plus
        • 1358

        Correct.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Coonoco

        "I like none of these hats" - shouldn't it be accepted?


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/John173097

        but to say, i do not like these hats. you would/could say: ich mag diese hüte nicht?


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Hang40023

        Can I say "Ich mag dieser Hüte nicht."?


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/-Copernicus-

        No, that rephrasing changes the emphasis a bit. Stick to translating the sentence as it's written.

        Also, you would need "diese Hüte" since "Hüte" is plural accusative.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/RobertHJMa

        'I do not like these hats' Should be accepted, surely?


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/alex547970

        I hate how Duolingo insists on being verbose.

        Kein = not a

        "I don't like these hats" should be acceptable


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/-Copernicus-

        If Duo had wanted you to write "I don't like these hats," it would have given you "Ich mag diese Hüte nicht." The given sentence "Ich mag keinen dieser Hüte" translates pretty much word for word to "I don't like any of these hats" and has a difference in emphasis. It adds extra emphasis to the fact that there is not a single hat that you like out of them, and "I don't like any of these hats" captures that much more equivalently.

        I agree that your translation has essentially the same meaning, but since there's a more direct translation into English, use that one.


        https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Mancho.Fergany

        Keinen(Maskulin Akk)+ dieser Hüte(plural Gentiv)

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