Persian for Duolingo!
For many years people on Duolingo have been asking for Persian, an ancient and beautiful language to be at least added to the incubator where the many contributors that I've seen that want to help create the Persian course can help. But alas, nothing has been done. Even High Valyrian has been added before Persian, the 14th most spoken language in the world! (Not being racist to Targarians or anything) I ask you to sign this petition to grasp the attention of the Duolingo team so they might at last release Persian to the incubator where it can be worked on.
And please share this link with others so we can get Persian on Duolingo sooner!
Farsi (Persian) is a staggeringly beautiful language, the language used by some of the finest poets, writers, cinematographers and artists the world has ever known. Hafez, Omar Khayyam, Ferdowsi, Kiarostami.... what more reason do you need to develop a Duolingo course for others to share this priceless treasure. Oh, and Iran is a fantastic country to visit too!
That post has been dead for 2 years and still nothing has even been mentioned about most of those languages. :/
The official Duolingo Help Center
....... If you want to suggest a language, we encourage you to visit the forums, search for suggestions that have been made in the past, and add your vote or comment to existing posts.
That will make the request more popular and make it stand out more, encouraging more people to add their votes.
This is not directed to you, I know what it says in the help centre and I'm not saying multiple posts is better than voting, but I wonder if there comes a point at which we should stop pointing people to that post. It's almost a year and a half old and it has had zero effect on the courses that have been added.
- Japanese: behind the scenes work before the Guide was posted
- Haitian Creole: 80ish votes, not in top 60 (back then at least)
- Game of Thrones: one negative vote, not in top 100 (not then, not now)
Those are the only courses that have been added during that time for English speakers. The same guide exists in two other languages, Italian and French, who have seen no additions at all in that time period. Are the downvoters seriously in favour of directing people there if it's the same situation 2 years from now? 5 years? 10? At some point you have to look at it and say: "It's clearly pointless. Why bother?"
To be fair, many other languages are more highly requested than Persian. I'd like Persian to be here though. But I also haven't seen High Valyrian being requested nearly as much as other languages or at all and at that point I agree with you. Maybe I missed it. Duolingo is not a democracy - unfortunately.
I agree, there are other languages than are requested perhaps more than Persian but I believe Persian is a unique and special language with a huge benefit and the ability to read the greatest poetry ever written, among other things. It's clear that Duolingo isn't a democracy or it would probably be very different haha but I'm just trying to raise awareness of why Persian would be such a great addition to Duolingo.
I completely agree with you that it would be a great addition. Especially since there are no other Indo-Iranian languages on Duolingo.
Would you prefer Dari, Farsi or Tajiki? I don't know how close these languages are. Can speakers of each of these three languages understand old literature written in Persian?
Would there be arguments among the speakers of the other two languages which were not added and speakers of the one that was added? I imagine it could cause problems.
Is there a kind of Standard Persian that is native to all of them and equally understood by all of them? Is it written in the Perso-Arabic script?
There's no standard, official Persian. For similarities and differences between Farsi, Dari and Tajiki, I quote myself from here, [I've edited the comment to fit this situation]:
Hello, native Farsi speaker here! All three, Dari, Tajik and Farsi are major dialects of Persian. [Not individual languages] Farsi is more prominent and also more updated, and has more Arabic loanwords than the other two. Dari, is an older form of Persian with a completely different intonation and not-that-slight differences in vocabulary. Where Farsi speakers would prefer French words or pronunciations, Dari speakers prefer English. [Dari has more English loanwords than Arabic] (For example, Farsi speakers call "chocolate" /shokolaat/, while Dari speakers call it /chaaklet/, according to Farhang Moaaser's Farsi-Dari Dari-Farsi Dictionary) Nonetheless, we understand each other pretty well. Tajik, on the other hand, is written in Cyrillic instead of the Persian alphabet, as you mentioned. People can understand each other when speaking, but usually not when writing. From the very little exposure I've had to Tajik, their vocabulary doesn't have striking differences from ours. Tajik is also newer than Dari.
Having said that, if Farsi or Tajiki is taught on Duolingo, everyone can (more easily) understand learners speak, including Dari speakers. Cyrillic alphabet is alien to Farsi and Dari speakers, so overall, Farsi is favorable in terms of language. In terms of support, Iran is more known and more active among the three countries, Iran, Tajikistan, and Afghanistan. (Afghanistan is also unstable, Afghani folk in Iran will be more tuned to Farsi and Tajiki intonation) That makes Farsi more widespread, and again, Farsi is the best choice.
They are all mutually intelligible and are basically dialects of Persian with minor differences. Farsi is the world standard for Persian and specifically 'Tehranian Parsi' which is like 'Istanbul Turkish'. All educated speakers of Persian who understand a range of vocabulary will be able to read old literature, no matter their nationality. I don't think there would be any disagreements between us because it is widely accepted that Farsi is the official language however some suggest that Dari is a purer version of Persian because it was less affected by the Arab invasion which implemented much vocabulary and changed the script. I think most of the Persian speakers would agree that Romanized Persian in the Latin script would be best for Duolingo because it would be much more complicated to use the Perso-Arabic script, also Latinized Persian is much more popular amongst Iranic youth and they use it often on social media.
Ridiculous. Nowhere, on no official document, in no respectable course, by no recognized individual has Farsi been used with Latin script. Aside from the insult to the language -in my personal opinion- this will most likely impair learning. People who learn a language in another script -any script- will have trouble coping with the original script. One who doesn't learn the alphabet, is in fact restricting themselves to "Fingilish" resources, which as I mentioned, are not present on any respectable site.
And are you even aware of what you're saying? "Persian can be easily written in the Latin script"? (By the way, I happen to be a native Farsi speaker)
- You'll first need to introduce which sound does each of the double letters make. Assuming we write "ghoo" for "قو" and "zhaale" for "ژاله" you'll first have to demonstrate that we're assuming "zh" makes a "ژ" sound.
- Those "Iranic youth" -"Iranic" is not English by the way- probably don't care about language structure or ambiguous situations "Fingilish" will bring about. Would you write "jale" for "ژاله"? What's to stop people from reading it /jeil/? Would you say "jal-e"? How many languages do you know that use dash that frequently? Should "gale" be accepted as a correct answer because "g" can make a "ژ" sound as well? How would you reply to that? Where's the standard? "Iranic youth" social media?
- Then you'll find yourself in a predicament with تشدید, which "Iranic youth" would simply ignore.
- Then you'll have to choose between French and English. French is preferred in Farsi, but you're teaching to English speakers.
- And, frankly, how easy is it for all Persian speakers (Farsi, Dari and Tajiki alike) to read their language in Latin alphabet?
- In the end, you'll have to answer for violating the language rules. If Tajik was taught in Cyrillic, yes, I could live with that. But Latin?
(one unnecessary capitalization fixed and the first "taught" was replaced by "used" with sentence structure change)
In fact, it is learning a foreign script first that impairs the learning of someone who is unfamiliar to a script. Romanized Persian is an official script recognized by the Iranian Government which you can find here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Persian) And yes, I am completely sure that Farsi can be written in the Latin script, even easier than the Perso-Arabic script which doesn't work for the language whatsoever and leaves countless words based on context. Of course this doesn't change the fact that the Perso-Arabic script is mostly used but when a learner can see a word in their native script and instantly be able to read it, they will comprehend and remember it 100x faster than if they are introduced to an alien script and then have to learn every word in that script.
- Double letter phoneme's are outdated and inefficient. Is it not easier to show a learner than A with a Macron = Aa than teaching another script.
-Ghoo would be written Qoo -Zhale can be easily written as j̄āleh.
A learner can understand and remember this within seconds.
- My point with the *Iranian youth was that the Latin script for Persian is widely understood by them. Of course they don't care for the language structure, they use the Latin script for ease of writing - because it's easier to use than the Perso-Arabic script - but that was not my point.
As I pointed out macrons and diacritics can be understood or learned by native English speakers within seconds.
Nobody would read 'Jale' as /Jeil/ because it would be easily written as 'J̄āleh'.
I have no idea what you are talking about, do you understand the difference between script and language?
It's very easy for people who have been introduced to the Latin script, which is to say most of modern Iranians. As a literate Persian, do you find this hard to read?
Tamām-e afrād-e bashar āzād be-donyā miyāyand va az lehāż-e heis̱īyat-o hoqūq bāham barābarand. Hame dārā-ye ʿaql-o vejdān mībāshand va bāyad nesbat be-yekdīgar bā rūh-e barābarī raftār konand.
I don't think many Iranians would struggle with this after being told which macrons mean what, which is pretty obvious anyway. In fact as a native Persian speaker I find this easier to read than in the Perso-Arabic script.
I'm not saying that Persian has to now be written in the Latin script but for the purposes of Duolingo, that is the best way to go. When you have learned the language, it is then very easy to learn to read and write, but this is prolonged a thousand times over if you want to create every Persian course on Duolingo in another script.
In response to your other comment I am fully aware of all the points you made, Farsi would be the chosen dialect for Duolingo because it is generally accepted as the world standard due to Iran's prominence in the Persian speaking world.
@DamounGhafouriF in reply to "in fact...":
There are strong opinions regarding romanization for any language, and many people learn the alphabet first, I don't hear them complain that their learning is "impaired". Look at Duolingo's Japanese course; Hiragana is taught first. Look at the Russian course; it's in Cyrillic. Why should we make fools of ourselves because of unverified claims?
"Recognized by the Iranian government"? "Official script"?! First, it's the academy that should recognize anything to do with the language; not the government. Second, please give me a link of a government-controlled website supporting your claim. That Wikipedia article isn't sufficient. Look at this paragraph with no citation, the parts in bold are very ridiculous, others are just ridiculous:
The Latin script plays in Iran the role of a second script. For the proof of this assertion it is sufficient to take a look at the city and street signs or the Internet addresses in all countries. On the other hand, experience has shown that efforts to teach millions of Iranian young people abroad in reading and writing Persian mostly prove to be unsuccessful, due to the lack of daily contact with the Persian script. It seems that a way out of this dilemma has been found; and that is the use of the Latin script parallel to the Persian script.
Look, unknown contributor of Wikipedia, city and street names are as they are; they can not be translated. You call "گیلان", "Gilaan" (well, "Guilan" officially, but I disagree with that) not "The land of the Gil people". You call "مهرداد" "Mehrdaad", not "One who's given by Mehr". Romanization of street names and city names is the only way of providing a navigation guide understandable to English speakers. (And it's not like they preferred romanization. The signs provide both Farsi and English navigation. And to support my claim on the fact that any Latin character is intended for English speakers, look at road signs. For example, it doesn't say "Kamarband-e imeni-e khod are bebandid", it says "Fasten your seat belt".)
And sites, you know, many of these sites were made before you could use non-Latin alphabet in domain names. And even now, Farsi-specific letters aren't allowed. (As far as I know, that is) So for many of the cases where the audience was speaking Persian, there was no other choice but romanization. "Experience"?! Whose experience?! Where's the proof of that?
Doesn't work for the language whatsoever and leaves countless words based on context
So the greatest figures of Persian language have held back this "fact" for more than a thousand years so you and I can come and state it? And the second part, it doesn't make much sense to me.
What you propose is not English native script, I assure you. And I'd like to hear where you've gotten that "100X".
"Outdated and inefficient", is it? We'll see if the "updated" version works any better. There are two aspects; reading and writing.
- "Qoo" is read /koo/ by default in English. Reading it any other way will cause frustration. "Easily", it's not.
- Those are phonetic accents, used for, well, phonetics. And, according to AHD's pronunciation rules, ā is /ei/ not /aa/. Again, frustration. So it's not "within seconds".
- What keyboard will people use to get all those accents? There's no keyboard to support all of them easily. Thus, people will resort to no-accent letters, and thus, frustration for both them and us. Needless to say, people already disregard accents on Duolingo, no matter how easy they are to put. And on-screen buttons are very slow to work, and one can't type fast and have the mouse at the same time.
- What about alternative forms that should be registered on Duolingo?
You didn't answer my question; where's the standard? (Not that impractical created-by-unknown-person file linked on Wikipedia, please. Give me a link to a literate-written academy-verified source.) The truth is, there is no standard.
Side note- The "ه" in "ژاله" isn't pronounced. Why have you included it? How to stop learners from reading it?
That's the point. One who doesn't care for basic language rules, should not be authorized to teach the language.
Yes, I understand the difference between language and script. When you reach a language through a script, the language is seen that way. And the language seems unnatural, because you're not teaching a script, you're teaching a language.
Yes, I find reading it rather laborious compared to reading in the Farsi script. And typing that is even more laborious (as mentioned); that's why you and I will copy that from a Wikipedia article or use 3rd party tools, not our own keyboards.
I've already talked about accents up there, so on to the next points. Duolingo is well capable with Cyrillic and Hiragana, and there's an English for Arabic course already. At this point, it's more a matter of want or not want rather than can or cannot. And, I think, learning a new alphabet will be no easier no matter what. Tajiki speakers should have as much difficulty learning Farsi alphabet as German speakers will have.
You didn't say "generally accepted", you said "world standard" and "official language". The latter is wrong.
(edited to add "And it's not like..." to the end of that paragraph and "or use 3rd..." to the end of the paragraph)
(minor edit for better grammar)
I agree that Persian should be taught with the Perso-Arabic script. Maybe there could be an option to switch to Latin as it is in the Russian course but, as you mentioned, there are a lot of problems with that, especially the lack of standard. Geographic names or people's names are often transliterated into the Latin alphabet but I think that even here there is no standard. So maybe the Latin script could be introduced as an option for a Persian course but not to replace the Perso-Arabic script. In my opinion, everyone who is serious about learning a language should learn its script. When I started learning Persian, it was the first thing I did. It was hard at first but then it got better. But it is always a part of learning a language, we learn new words, new grammar, new sounds and sometimes a new script. I can imagine that without knowing the Perso-Arabic script I would be very "impaired" when it comes to written Persian.
I would certainly prefer and welcome Persian in Latinised script over Perso-Arabic. I first learned Japanese by this method, then did more intense study of the characters later on. When I joined to learn basic Hebrew here, I faltered when I encountered the Hebrew characters in the very first lesson. Of course, 22 or 28 characters is nothing like Japanese, but I wanted the basics down first, before I committed to learning more alphabets. I would say that the uptake of any Persian course if offered here would be greatly enhanced by taking a Latinised approach, at least for the first... what 10 levels?
I think there should be an option to choose between Perso-Arabic and Latin script like there is an option to choose between Cyrillic and Latin for Russian.
Especially since there are no other Indo-Iranian languages on Duolingo.
Hindi is an Indo-Iranian language and the Hindi course is in the Incubator. Maybe it will be even ready this year.
It's not literal, it's obviously exaggerated but I assure you anyone who reads Persian poetry will be astounded by its depth and meaning
Sepāsgozāram. Omidvāram keh tim Duolingo Fārsi-rā be zudi ezāfeh konand. (Thank you, I hope that the Duolingo team adds Farsi soon)
I signed!! Been wanting this for SO long!!!! And I sent it to my friends that want to learn this! :)
Thank you, hopefully the Duolingo team will finally realize how important Persian is to add!
persian poem is the best poem like ferdowsi saadi hafiz... .I love persian language.
Hi, I would appreciate if you could please visit the site linked above to petition for Persian to be added to Duolingo so more people can learn and understand the poems of Ferdowsi, Saadi and Hafez which are the greatest in the world.
I have a request, and that's is: we want to Duolingo add " Persian Course" to the software. thanks . :-)
ممنون جناب دامون که این درخواست رو تنظیم کردهاید. در مورد اینکه زبان پارسی چه اندازه شیرین و زیبا و باستانی و شاعرانه و ... هست شاید حرفی نباشه ولی زبانآموز برای یادگیری این زبان نسبت به زبانهای دیگه خیلی کم است. مثلن با مراجعه به سایتهای پیرامون زبانآموزی میشه کم و بیش به چنین نتیجهای رسید ــ اگرچه بهراستی نمیشه بهش استناد کرد. خیلی اندک هستند افرادی که مایلند این زبان رو یاد بگیرند. شاید علت اصلی عدم استقبال مردم، وضعیت سیاسی اجتماعی و اقتصادی کشور و جایگاهش در جهان باشه. من فکر میکنم عمدهی مردم به یادگیری زبانی روی میآرند که گویشوران آن زبان وجههی جهانی خوبی از خود نشان داده باشند. مثلن افراد کمتری به یادگیری زبان عربی روی میآرند در مقابل زبان آلمانی. با اینکه زبان عربی هم گویشور بیشتری دارد و هم از ادبیات کهنتر و بیشتری برخوردار است. از این رو من فکر میکنم خارجیها نمیتوانند خودشان را توجیه کنند که چرا باید زبان پارسی را یاد بگیرند. مگر معدودی که شبفتهی این زبان و ادبیاتش هستند. بهطور خلاصه منظورم این است که اکثریت مردم وقتی زبان خارجیئی را میآموزند به همان حد گفتوگو و نوشتار عمومی بسنده میکنند، نه اینکه وارد ادبیات و متنهای کهن آن زبان شوند. کشور ایران و دیگر کشورهای پارسیگو جایگاه مطلوبی در سطح جهانی ندارند، رسانهها نیز به این وضعیت دامن میزنند. کشوری که این همه آثار دیدنی طبیعی و باستانی دارد به نسبت بازدیدکنندهخارجی خیلی کمی دارد. تا درهای کشور باز نشود و سختگیریهای بیهوده کنار گذاشته نشوند چنین چیزی تحققش ممکن نیست.
در مورد دولینگو هم همین کمی زبانآموز پارسی و وجههی کشورها شاید بیتاثیر نیست (اگر واقعن این حدس درست باشد). اما دلیل اصلی شکل نوشتار زبان پارسیست که ساخت ربات گوینده را برای آن دشوار میکند. یعنی دولینگو میبایست ربات گفتاری زبان پارسی را ابتدا بسازد، سپس طبق آن زبان را آموزش دهد.
در مورد این که آیا میشود و یا بهتر است که به نوشتار لاتین پارسی آموزش داده شود، گمان کنم دهها دلیل مثبت برای انجام این کار وجود دارد، هرچند مشکلاتی نیز به دنبال خواهد داشت. ولی احامالن کمتر از مشکلات خط کنونیست.
و این مورد که پارسی یا دری یا تاجیکی آموزی داده شود، این حرف بهانه است. همونجور که خودتون اشاره کردید اختلاف کمی بین این زبانها وجود دارد. پس چندان فرقی نمیکند کدام گویش را اساس قرار دهند.
بنده چند نکته خدمت شما عرض کنم،
منظور شما از "ربات گوینده"، همان موتور TTS (Text to Speech) یا موتور گفتار به نوشتار است. دولینگو موتور TTS نمی سازد و نیازی هم به این کار نیست. مثلا، صدای انگلیسی دولینگو همان صدای "Salli" از صدای های شرکت IVONA ست.
نکته دیگر این که صدا ها به احتمال بالا زنده نیستند. یعنی صدا ها پیش تر ضبط شده، سپس (خودکار) به هر تمرین وصل می شوند و سرور میزبانی فایل را بر عهده دارد نه میزبانی موتور را. به عبارتی، هر موتور TTS قانونی را می توان در دولینگو به کار گرفت.
نکته دیگر، صدا های دوره (کورس) ها نباید الزاما TTS باشد. برای نمونه به دوره های ایرلندی، اسپرانتو یا گوارانی نگاه کنید. برای چنین زبان هایی که ،شکر خدا، موتور TTS "خوب" ای در کار نیست، صدا ها را یک سخنگوی بومی ضبط کرده و سازندگان آن ها را دستی به تمرین ها وصل می کننند. برای فارسی نیز چنین موقعیتی در کار است و نیازی به ساخت TTS نیست. یک مشکل آن است که دولنیگو با این روش چندان همساز نیست. در نظر داشته باشید که دوره های متکی بر موتور های TTS، برای همه چیز صدا دارند. ولی دوره هایی که صدای آدم دارند، برای شمار برگزیده ای از جمله ها و یکا ها صدا دارند. نتیجه آن که یک دوره ی دارای TTS حتما حجم بیشتری از سرور را بر می دارد تا دوره های دیگر، یعنی دولینگو ظاهرا باید واروی این استراتژی فعلی کار کند، که نمی کند! در این لحظه تنها دلیلی که من می توانم بگویم شاید دلیل دولینگو برای بی علاقگی به صدا های آدمیزاد باشد، این است که دوره های بی TTS حتما برای زبان های ناشناخته تر هستند. (که البته این دلیل برای بنده اصلا پذیرفتنی نیست و مصداق کامل تبعیض است)
شاید خوب باشد بدانید که (با استناد به سخن SiteSurf، از سازندگان دوره فرانسوی)، دولینگو علاقه ای به تعویض صدای TTS وحشتناک دوره ی فرانسوی نشان نمی دهد! (TTS ها بیشترشان همین گونه وحشتناک اند، برای همین بنده صدای آدم را ترجیح می دهم و خدا را شکر می کنم که TTS خوبی برای ایرلندی ساخته نشده است)
برای آموزش زبان پارسی (این پارسی هم ارز Persian است) در الفبای لاتین آن بالا سخن رفته است و بنده به تازگی چندی از مشکلاتش را فهرست کرده ام. بحثدر این نقطه بیش تر بر آن است که دولینگو نمی خواهد، نه این که نمی تواند. ژاپنی را به تازگی افزوده اند. (ساخت "انگلیسی برای ژابنی" سخت تر از ساخت "انگلیسی برای عربی" بود. به گفته Kippis سازندگان ژاپنی مجبور شدند در سیستم هر "کارکتر" را یک واژه معرفی کرده، هر یکای بزرگ تر را ساختار های اصطلاحی معرفی کنند)
چرا، چرا، خیلی فرق می کند! تاجیکی آموزش دهند مجبورند برای حمایت به تاجیکی ها بسنده کنند، چون بیش تر ایرانیان و افغان ها سیریلیک نمی دانند. دری آموزش دهند، ایرانیان و تاجیکی ها با آهنگ جملات و واژگان مشکل پیدا خواهند کرد. فارسی آموزش دهند، تاجیکی ها نمی توانند همکاری کنند. و تفاوت های میان این گویش ها (دقت کنید که این ها گویش های بزرگ هستند نه زبان های جداگانه) چندان کوچک هم نیست، حتی بر سر واژگان پایه هم تفاوت دارند. (که البته فارسی و تاجیکی همبسته ترند، چون دری یک فرم کهن تر از زبان پارسیست) مثلا، "فروردین"ما را افغان ها می گویند "حمل". (تاجیکی ها کلا نمی گویند، تاریخشان میلادیست) یا "مجمع" ما را افغان ها می گویند "اسامبله". یا "بی سرپرست" فارسی را می گویند "بی پدر و مادر" یا "بی پدر" (که هر دو در فارسی توهین هستند) یا "چگالی" را افغان ها می گویند "کثافت"! می بینید که مشکل بزرگ تر از این هاست. کسی هم از تیم دولینگو نیامده بگوید که "چون ما نمی دانیم کدام گویش را آموزش دهیم، آموزش نمی دهیم!"، پس "بهانه" ای در کار نیست.
(minor edits, hyperlinked Kippis's comment and fixed several typing issues)