https://www.duolingo.com/AltayBrusa

Keiner or Keine

Hi all, Can I ask why in the following sent. 'Keiner' (genetive case) is used but not keine (Nominative case)

Keiner der Bälle ist gelb.

Thanks

August 8, 2017

8 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/InuzukaShino

Keiner is used here, because 'Ball' is gramatically male (der Ball). It belongs to one Ball or one of them.

An other example:

  • Keine der Frauen ist groß.

Because 'Frau' is gramatically female, you have to use keine here (No one of the women is tall.)

August 8, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/AltayBrusa

Thanks

August 8, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/mizinamo

Keiner is in the nominative case.

It's used as a pronoun there, not as a determiner.

kein Ball (determiner, right before a noun: no ending in masculine nominative)

keiner "none of them" (pronoun, not before a noun: with ending in masculine nominative)

Compare e.g. mein and meiner -- the first is "my" (e.g. my ball), the second is "mine" (standing alone).

August 8, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/AltayBrusa

"Keiner is in the nominative case." but this https://deutsch.lingolia.com/en/grammar/sentence-structure/negation says it is genitive

August 10, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/mizinamo

No, it doesn't say that keiner is genitive.

It says that if you want to use the determiner kein before a noun, and that noun is feminine and in the genitive case, you would use the form keiner.

It does not say that if you see a word keiner somewhere, it will always be (a) the determiner or (b) in the genitive case. (The latter you can even verify from the table: keiner also appears in the dative case of feminine nouns.)

Have a look at http://www.canoo.net/inflection/kein:Pron:Indef instead -- This sentence uses it "nicht attributiv", where keiner can be masculine nominative, rather than "attributiv (vor einem Nomen)" which is the only table on your page.

This sentence has keiner standing by itself, which is then modified by der Bälle like "none + of the balls".

It's not using kein- modifying the noun directly as in kein Ball "no ball".

August 10, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/AltayBrusa

First, thanks for your time and kind response.

May I ask to correct me if I am wrong?

"Kein" can show up in two ways:

1- As an attribute (determiner) 2- Not an attribute.

In my example, i.e. "Keiner der Bälle" it is the second case (2). In this case the "Keiner" means none. It is not adjective and is does not require to obey the following noun role in the sentence ( in other words, Keiner does not need to have the role of "der Bälle"--which I guess it is in nominative form).

But here is a new question: If the keiner is not an attribute or determiner, then how do I chose it For example, why not the following sentence?

keine der Bälle ist gelb or keines der Bälle ist gelb

Thanks in advance

August 10, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/mizinamo

"Kein" can show up in two ways:

1- As an attribute (determiner) 2- Not an attribute.

In my example, i.e. "Keiner der Bälle" it is the second case (2). In this case the "Keiner" means none. It is not adjective and is does not require to obey the following noun role in the sentence

That's right.

"der Bälle"--which I guess it is in nominative form

No; der Bälle is genitive plural, corresponding to the English "of the balls". (One of the functions of the genitive case is to indicate possession and similar relations, similar to the use of "of" in English.)

If the keiner is not an attribute or determiner, then how do I chose it For example, why not the following sentence?

keine der Bälle ist gelb or keines der Bälle ist gelb

It acts like a pronoun which refers to something specific, and takes the appropriate gender.

A bit like how Turkish O iyi bir kişi does not have one unique translation into English, but you have to choose between "He is a good person" and "She is a good person" depending on whether you are referring to a man or a woman - the word refers to something specific and has to take that gender.

Here, you need keiner because you are referring to a ball (well, to "no ball") and Ball is masculine.

Keine der Blumen ist gelb would work for something feminine, or Keins/Keines der Bücher ist groß for neuter.

Or without the following genitive: Ich sehe drei Bälle. Aber keiner ist gelb. The keiner still refers (back) to the balls and so has to be masculine.

As a pronoun, keiner/keine/keines always refers to (the absence of) something specific -- if you don't have anything in mind, you would use nichts "nothing" rather that keiner/keine/keines.

This is unlike demonstratives, where you can refer to something unknown -- for example, you can say Der ist groß to mean "that one is big" (referring "back" like a pronoun to something you have mentioned before and which is grammatically masculine") but also Das ist groß to mean "That is big", referring to something that you have not spoken about before but that you are introducing to the conversation by pointing at it. In this "unknown" case, neuter singular is used -- even if it turns out that the unknown thing is actually multiple things: Das sind meine Autos "Those are my cars".

August 10, 2017
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