https://www.duolingo.com/imperfectdefect

Need help with the P. Perfect

Hello and thank you for taking the time to look at my question :)

I am supposed to turn the sentence "Ich weiß, dass er mit dem Rauchen aufhören soll." into P. Perfect. My thinking is, that the "soll" becomes "hat sollen" and because of the "dass" the "hat"(being the first verb) should go to the very end, after the "sollen". That is why my answer is: " Ich weiß, dass er mit dem Rauchen aufhören sollen hat." Apparently however that is not correct and the real answer is: " Ich weiß, dass er mit dem Rauchen hat aufhören sollen." When I move the first verb because of the "dass" am I supposed to ignore the other verbs somehow?

Help would be greatly appreciated :)

August 30, 2017

6 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/Stusstrupp

Topic: Word order in subclauses

In German, the conjugated verb moves to the end of the subclause:

Er hörte mit dem Rauchen auf. -- Ich weiß, dass er mit dem Rauchen aufhörte.

This rule also holds true for modal constructions, where as we know the modal verb is the one being conjugated:

Er sollte mit dem Rauchen aufhören -- Ich weiß, dass er mit dem Rauchen aufhören sollte.

But there's an exception: In present perfect and past perfect the modal verb remains in the infinitive, yet it moves to the end of the subclause. The conjugated auxiliary ("haben") is left standing in front of two infinitives, which might sound a bit awkward:

Er hat mit dem Rauchen aufhören sollen -- Ich weiß, dass er mit dem Rauchen hat aufhören sollen.

August 30, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/imperfectdefect

Thank you very much for your help, everyone - I know understand why the word order is so!

September 3, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/Lorel90

As Stusstrup explained in German some conjunctions create subordinate clauses, this topic is not covered in Duolingo. Dass is one of those conjunctions, also weil and many others. You can read about here: https://blogs.transparent.com/german/german-word-order-subordinate-clauses-part-1/

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~deutsch/Grammatik/WordOrder/Dependent.html

And in youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV4E71qaQaw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RI4lOt4riXslist=PLU-CxEkqc0Nqld2RFrh0iOhgrTnnzFYO7

August 31, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/AdamKean

Hi Lorel :)
I don't think imperfectdefect was/is having an issue with subordinate clauses and conjunctions as a whole, because ordinarily sticking "hat" to the end would be bang on the money with "dass".

The issue here is with what Canoo calls the "Ersatzinfinitv" (Artikel verfügbar sowohl auf Deutsch als auch auf Englisch); that is touched on as the very last point in your Dartmouth link - though Canoo refers to them as "Substitute Infinitives" in English, whereas Dartmouth refers to them as "Double-Infinitives".

September 2, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/Lorel90

Dass always introduces a sub clause.

September 3, 2017

https://www.duolingo.com/AdamKean

Ich wusste ja schon, dass "dass" einen Nebensatz immer einführt.

because ordinarily sticking "hat" to the end would be bang on the money with "dass".

Everyone in this discussion knows that "dass" introduces a subordinate clause, but like I said before:

The issue here is with ... the "Ersatzinfinitv"

It's a specific exception to the rule that sends the conjugated verb to the very end of the sub clause. As we can all see:

the real answer is: " Ich weiß, dass er mit dem Rauchen hat aufhören sollen."

I hope we are seeing eye-to-eye on this issue now :)

September 3, 2017
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