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  5. "Do not read this sentence."

"Do not read this sentence."

Translation:Lest diesen Satz nicht.

August 30, 2017

38 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mg180man

The pull down translation gives "Lesen Sie nicht diesen Satz" but then rejects it. I thought Duo was supposed to teach, not mislead.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

The pull down translation gives "Lesen Sie nicht diesen Satz"

Do you have a screenshot?

I can't find a place where all those five words are together in one hint (indicating that that particular word order is required or even possible).


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mg180man

Not without going through the whole lesson again. The pull down under 'do not read' gave "Lesen Sie nicht", under 'this' it offered "diesen" and below 'sentence', "Satz". Hope this helps.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

And all those words are used in this sentence, just not in that order.

How would you recommend presenting the information to make it clearer that in this sentence, the nicht should not be right next to the Lesen Sie?

Would adding a hint Lesen Sie ... nicht alongside the Lesen Sie nicht be helpful? (With the understanding that the version with the ellipsis may not be shown higher up.)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mg180man

Then "Lesen Sie nicht" should not drag down as a single translation if it is incorrect. What, then, IS the correct order for those five words?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

Then "Lesen Sie nicht" should not drag down as a single translation if it is incorrect.

"Don't read!" is Lesen Sie nicht! -- so those three words in that order are a correct translation of those two words in some contexts -- just not in the context of the current sentence.

The hints are a bit like a dictionary and can often contain translations that are not appropriate in the scope of the current sentence.

What, then, IS the correct order for those five words?

Lesen Sie diesen Satz nicht!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/blueice54

i'm a little confused about the placement of "nicht" at times. Is there a rule to it?

Why can't you say "lest nicht diesen Satz"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AdamKean

Is there a rule to it?

Yes there is.

As you will find if you look at both of the links above, if you say „Lest nicht diesen Satz“, you are inferring there is something the person you're talking to should read instead of this sentence. Zum Beispiel:

„Lest nicht diesen Satz, sondern diesen! Weil der besser geschrieben ist.“

I also broached this topic here if you're interested.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CatherineF639694

It will not accept any of my translations, even though exactly as it appears in the correction. Have reported it, but it keeps showing up...


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/aaronheiss

I think the problem is that you read the sentence.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Laura33124

I think it would be "lese diesen Satz nicht" -- not "lest"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AdamKean

It can be any of the following:

  • Lies diesen Satz nicht;

  • Lest diesen Satz nicht; or

  • Lesen Sie diesen Satz nicht.

*Dieser Beitrag ist wegen der Korrektur von mizinamo verändert worden.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MisKitos

Why are no pronouns besides Sie allowed?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

The command forms for du and ihr (second person singular and plural) are proper imperatives. As in English, they do not include a pronoun. (We say "Don't read!" and not "Don't you read!" or "You don't read!".)

Sie, however, is grammatically a third person plural pronoun -- and German doesn't have a third-person imperative form.

So a command addressed to Sie technically uses the subjunctive, rather than the imperative. And this construction includes the pronoun.

It's a bit like how we say "May they rest in peace", and not simply "May rest in peace" -- that kind of third-person "command" needs the pronoun.

So do German commands addressed to Sie, because even though the meaning is "you", the grammar is third person.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

Liese! is not correct; only Lies! is possible with this verb.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Uberling

How can we trust you when you tell us Lies?!

;-)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ben862854

Is "Lies" an "ihr" form?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AdamKean

And to add to what mizinamo said; the du form is almost always formed by removing the "st" from the end of the indicative (normal) du verb form (with the possible option of adding an "e"):

e.g. „du liest“ -> „Lies!“
„du gehst“ -> „Geh!“ or „Gehe!“

One addition to this rule is if the vowel of the verb stem is an "a" that receives an umlaut in the indicative du form, it doesn't receive the umlaut in the imperative du form:

e.g. „du fängst“ -> „Fang!“ (and not „Fäng!“)

And other than that I can only think of one further exception; namely:

„sein“ -> „du bist“ -> „Sei!“

*EDIT!
Just thought of another exception!:

„haben“ -> „du hast“ -> „Hab!“


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

No -- Lies! is the du form.

As far as I know, the imperative form for ihr is always the same as the regular verb form, e.g. Lest! Seid! Esst!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sol52347

Why is Lesen Sie diesen Satz nicht marked incorrect?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

Why is Lesen Sie diesen Satz nicht marked incorrect?

No idea; it's one of the accepted translations.

Do you have a screenshot?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mg180man

According to mizinamo, that is correct. Duo can be exceedingly confusing at times.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ann784817

Why can't you say lesen Sie nicht den Satz?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AdamKean

The placement of "nicht" is the more complex issue, though that has been broached on multiple occasions in this discussion—first by blueice54 and responded to by myself:

i'm a little confused about the placement of "nicht" at times. Is there a rule to it?

Why can't you say "lest nicht diesen Satz"?

Is there a rule to it?

Yes there is.

As you will find if you look at both of the links above, if you say „Lest nicht diesen Satz“, you are inferring there is something the person you're talking to should read instead of this sentence. Zum Beispiel:

„Lest nicht diesen Satz, sondern diesen! Weil der besser geschrieben ist.“

I also broached this topic here if you're interested.

The remaining issue thereafter is a simple one. Duo always requires a form of "dieser" (in this case "diesen") where "this" is used in the English sentence. "Den" would be used if the English sentence were "Do not read the sentence".


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Ann784817

I agree with mg180man. Don't understand why it's not accepted


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

Don't understand why it's not accepted

Because we don't say Lesen Sie nicht diesen Satz in German; we say Lesen Sie diesen Satz nicht instead.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MurrayDouglas

Was AdamKean incorrect when he stated previously in this conversation that there IS in fact a context for which Germans say, "Lesen Sie nicht diesen Satz"?

This was the explanation he gave for that context, "...[if] there is something the person you're talking to should read instead of this sentence".

Can you or someone else please remove his explanation if it is wrong? If it is not wrong, can you please adjust Duolingo to stop marking this translation as wrong?

Uncommon or unusual are definitely not the same thing as wrong.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AdamKean

Uncommon or unusual are definitely not the same thing as wrong.

How about incomplete?
Perhaps I was somewhat unclear in my explanation (possibly because I assumed everyone would read the linked articles), because what I meant was: yes, you might hear a fluent German speaker say "Lesen Sie nicht diesen Satz...", but it will always be followed by a "sondern" and then the thing that should be read instead (as I showed with my example)—which is not the case with this sentence.

So, "Lesen Sie nicht diesen Satz" may form part of a sentence, but cannot make up an entire standalone sentence.

And if that wasn't clear enough: I am of mizinamo's opinion (amongst others), that "Lesen Sie nicht diesen Satz." should not be accepted as correct here.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/mizinamo

I completely agree with this comment.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/MurrayDouglas

I did read the as much of the articles as I was able to digest before submitting my question to this forum. In them I found at least a few examples where nicht came near the end of the sentence but before a noun that was negated.

Some of them were stand alone sentences and I'm unable to distinguish why they can be permitted to stand alone while the current exercise in question cannot.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AdamKean

I presume you are referring to these examples:

nicht coming directly before a noun without requiring sondern

N.B. For future reference, it would have saved time, if you'd started by saying you couldn't digest everything in the articles and wanted some further clarification, rather than twisting my comment to look like I was claiming something different to mizinamo.

So, there are three sentences that seem to fly right in the face of everything we've said thus far:

Sie wird nicht Pilotin.
Er spielt nicht Gitarre.
Wir fahren nicht Auto.

The first one falls under the caveat:

Always before predicatives

To cut a long story short, you only deal with predicatives in combination with copula verbs—that means verbs that have either two nominative objects (a.k.a. one subject that is named twice) or a subject and an adjective.
All you need to know here is: because we're dealing with "diesen Satz" (accusative case) in this sentence, we can cross the predicatives exception off our list (another way to check we're not dealing with a copula verb is simply to check if "lesen" is listed on the Canoo page, and it isn't).

The next two are listed under:

Always before nouns and noun phrases forming a fixed expression together with the verb:

What this means is "Gitarre spielen" and "Auto fahren" are fixed expressions. This is why you can place "nicht" before "Gitarre" or "Auto" and not require a "sondern". However, "einen Satz lesen" is not a fixed expression, so that rules it out of this exception as well.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/sol52347

Why not "Lesen sie nicht diesen Satz "?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AdamKean

Please read through the comments before posting a question, as it may have already been asked and answered. In this case, it is quite possibly the most discussed topic in this discussion. I'd recommend reading through either of the threads started by Ann784817, or checking out this thread from blueice54:

i'm a little confused about the placement of "nicht" at times. Is there a rule to it?

Why can't you say "lest nicht diesen Satz"?

AdamKean
Is there a rule to it?

Yes there is.

As you will find if you look at both of the links above, if you say „Lest nicht diesen Satz“, you are inferring there is something the person you're talking to should read instead of this sentence. Zum Beispiel:

„Lest nicht diesen Satz, sondern diesen! Weil der besser geschrieben ist.“

I also broached this topic here if you're interested.

P.S. When used for the formal you "Sie" is always capitalised.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DanielaAnt118917

lesen sie nicht diesen Satz dieser Vorschlag kommt von euch nicht von mir somit ist meine Antwort richtig verdammt noch mal


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AdamKean

dieser Vorschlag kommt von euch nicht von mir somit ist meine Antwort richtig

Ist dir klar, dass sich dein „euch“ einfach auf andere Duo-Benutzer bezieht, die gerade dabei sind, Deutsch zu lernen, und nicht auf diejenigen, die schon Deutsch können, und dementsprechend in der Lage sind, zu entscheiden, ob eine neue Satzvariante zugelassen werden sollte?

lesen sie nicht diesen Satz

Der Grund, warum dieser Vorschlag als falsch bewertet wird, ist schon vor über einem Jahr in dieser Diskussion von blueice54 und mir besprochen worden:

i'm a little confused about the placement of "nicht" at times. Is there a rule to it?

Why can't you say "lest nicht diesen Satz"?

Is there a rule to it?

Yes there is.

As you will find if you look at both of the links above, if you say „Lest nicht diesen Satz“, you are inferring there is something the person you're talking to should read instead of this sentence. Zum Beispiel:

„Lest nicht diesen Satz, sondern diesen! Weil der besser geschrieben ist.“

I also broached this topic here if you're interested.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/derekw7

I had written "Lesen Sie diesen Satz nicht" - which I knew was quite right, but thought I would check the correction. I then "corrected mine" and found that the answer given was what I had thought in the first place. This is quite annoying and often happens. This seems to be similar to blue ice54's comment.

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