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  5. "テストではじしょをひいてはいけません。"

"テストではじしょをひいてはいけません。"

Translation:You are not allowed to use a dictionary during the test.

September 1, 2017

46 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BrunaPralon

What about "you can't look it up in a dictionary in a test"? Is it wrong in english?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/V2Blast

Yes. テストで can't be translated as "in a test" in this sentence. で indicates "during" in this context; it's essentially "where" the action is occurring.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tonkotsuLover

That's actually something interesting; if Duo wanted "during" (as it clearly does from a quick glance to the English translation), it could have used「〜の間に」, making the sentence「テストの間にはじしょをひいていけません。」.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tx91791

That would not be correct English. Despite the other comments saying it is.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/hongme

Why is it? I am not a native speaker so it seems fine to me.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dan553966

The sentence is grammatical as it stands, but there is a stylistic/logical problem with "it" in that there is nothing in the sentence to which "it" can refer ("it" has no antecedent). So, "It" introduces an element into the sentence which is not in the Japanese .


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Gabriel746428

では means during, as far as I know.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/tonkotsuLover

That would just make the thing that it is during the topic of the sentence. で is still the main particle indicating "during"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/kurros

It's not technically correct formal English, but native speakers say stuff like that all the time, so I wouldn't be so draconian as to say it is wrong.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Sam159864

This module is irritating with all it's really specific answers


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/pahko_

Do we have two topic particles in this sentence? Is that cool? I know てはいけません is a phrase meaning something is forbidden, but I'm wondering how the は there relates to or interacts with the は in 「テストでは」.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dan553966

Japanese sentences can contain multiple topic-comment structures. When they are embedded they can be analyzed as an onion-skin sort of structure. Internal structures open and close within the enclosing structure. (Topic1 opens (topic2 opens-topic2 closes) topic1 closes). In this sentence "ikemasen" closes both structures. (As for during a test-- (as for using a dictionary--not allowed)). The internal structure is the comment on the external structure.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/steve817862

There is a lot of confusion about using では. It does not mean "during." In the context of this sentence, "during" is implied. It simply means "is."

If I were to back translate the translation, I would say, "テストをしながら,辞書をひいてはいけません。"

The word "during" ,ながら, however, has not been introduced in the DL lessons. When you say テストでは, you're simply saying "the test is and", and the rest of the sentence will pertain to the test. The given sentence is vague, so the listener fills in the blanks. It's not ungrammatical, but you're not likely to actually hear or see this sentence in real life.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SusanAlexa11

I don't think that is quite right. で gives me the sense that some preposition is involved. In another context we might translate it, "at," but "at the test" sounds a little weird, although it could maybe work. "During" sounds better. If it were just "is" I believe it would be テストは, as in テストはむずかしいです.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/steve817862

Hi Susan, what I said is right. I grew up speaking Japanese. I wrote that to help learners like you. Don't overthink this. Like I said, you won't come across this sentence in real life. It's just a lesson sentence.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dan553966

You are right in saying that there is no "during" in the sentence but "dewa" is not "....is and."

The "wa" indicates that the rest of the sentence is to be understood within the parameters of "tesuto de." I believe that "de" can be understood as a particle indicating various things such as means or location.

If, however, the "de" is to be regarded as a form of "desu," it does not mean "xx exists" but "xx being a test." So, "tesuto de wa" means something like "(It) being a test, understand my comment in that context."

It's certainly simpler to take "de wa" as a compound particle meaning "(topical) in, by, or with."

Leave the question of classical derivation to more advanced study.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/steve817862

で in this case is a verb, a form of だ. It is like なり or なって. It is not the main verb of the sentence, only of the clause. There is no direct translation, so "being a test" works too.

It absolutely is not the same で as ペンで書く。 Or 学校で働く。In the former, it follows a object type noun. In the latter, it follows a location type noun. The literary form of だ is である or ではある。Hence the negative, ではない or ではありません。It is this kind of で being used in this sentence.

Classical derivation? I don't know what you are talking about. In any case, you are trying force an English language thought pattern here on the sentence, but this is not English.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SusanAlexa11

I know I should let this go, but, oh well, just one more try. Actually, it really does seem that this で is precisely the で in ペンで書く. I looked up uses of は in my Essential Japanese Grammar, which is a great book, (and written by Japanese people) with many examples of usage, and one of the usages given for は is after adverbial phrases with a particle. An example was クラスではだれがいちばんせいが高いですか, Who is the tallest in the class? This seems to be the case we are dealing with here, not the で in ではありません, that you are talking about.

Thanks, I fixed the typo.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/steve817862

Hi Susan, I think you wanted to write クラス, not クラク. Simple typo, no worries. But the example you provide is the reason why I was curious about DuoLingo in the first place. As a native English/Japanese bilingual speaker, I am troubled by the bad Japanese being taught in the US. Just to be fair, when I was living in Japan, I wanted to help Japanese students learn correct English because they were being taught bad English, too. I'm here to help sincere learners who want to learn correct Japanese. Your example is not correct Japanese. It should say "クラスの中には、だれのせが一番高いですか?"

This is my last post on this topic. I do not want to waste my time on people who are not sincere in their desire to learn real Japanese but just want to argue senselessly. I'm sorry that people have misled you, but the truth is, American textbooks have mostly been written by Americans who did not speak Japanese fluently. They did not consult bi-cultural people before publishing and therefore the books have a lot of mistakes. They try to reason through the grammar instead of just learning it and gaining the sense of the words. People like that cannot be reached. しようがない。Maybe they can impress people with nonsense technical grammar jargon, but what use is it? Especially when you can't even understand such a simple sentence ?

As for the original sentence, the meaning is not "during." After thinking about it, a better translation would be "Because this is a test, ..." The given translation is bad. Period.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dan553966

Inasmuch as "desu" and "de" ultimately derive from the same classical origins, you are right in associating "de" with "desu" to the extent that the concept of "being" should never be forgotten when dealing with "de." It lurks somewhere even when "de" is a particle.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dan553966

Right on, SusanAlexa11!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Shiinoko

Whats the purpose of では?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/loopendend

It's like "As for within..." like "As for within the test, you may not use the dictionary"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/V2Blast

は indicates the topic. で indicates "during" in this context; it's essentially "where" the action is occurring.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/koumori72

It's a bit like "for the purpose of the"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Kei06182005

Is ひいて only used for consulting a dictionary, or does it have other uses as well?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Nicodraxus

Many, many, many uses. It is essentially the verb for "pull," and is used for pulling, playing an instrument, subtracting...a lot of others. I like to think of it as "pulling a definition from the dictionary" (just to help remember). And with playing, plucking the strings of a guitar.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Andrew-Lin

Just for your information, as far as I know "pulling a definition from the dictionary" is actually close to the origin of this usage. More specifically, "引く" has a meaning "picking out something from a group," so "辞書を引く" means "pick out the definition of a word from tons of words in the dictionary."


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/okottacat

what about 'You shouldn't use dictionary during the test' ?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SanDigital

I'd say no because "shouldn't" and "can't" are very different modals. For "shouldn't", it's a bad idea, but still allowed, whereas "can't" means it's not allowed.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FranStalli

Why not "you may not use"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/T33K3SS3LCH3N

Hiku means "to look up, to consult" in this context. You could translate it literally as "you may not consult the dictionary", but practically we would just say "you can't use the dictionary". So the less literal version may convey the message a little better in most circumstances.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SanDigital

I agree that "you may not use" is synonymous. In my ESOL grammar class, we spend a lot of time looking at modals. In one of the major definitions, MAY is used to indicated whether or not something is allowed or not according to a set of rules.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SusanAlexa11

From an English language perspective, "may" is actually more correct than "can," and I have been trying to teach DL that by reporting on those occasions when "may" is not accepted, but should be. It seems to be learning.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Dan553966

Duo doesn't believe in the shall/will distinction either.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SotkaPottu

It's forbidden to consult dictionary in the test


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/steve817862

Your sentence would be: 辞書を引き禁止です。


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Eyebrows7

I put "You musn't use the dictionary during the test." And was marked incorrect. Is this answer wrong?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/SusanAlexa11

You spelled mustn't wrong, otherwise it might be right. You could do the experiment and let us know. :)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/JovemImortal

You can't look at the dictionary during the test. isn't this phrase good? If you agree give a like and I will report it


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Nawu9

Why is "you are not" instead of "It is not" if there is no indication that the phrase is being directed to someone?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/hmcliesh1

what is wrong with" you must not use a dictionary during the test"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Julian285924

I put 'You are not allowed to look up a dictionary during the test' and was marked incorrect.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DashAlex22

I wrote “...use a test during the dictionary.” What is wrong with me (¯―¯٥)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Nancy69152jb

This Japanese sentence "テストではじしょをひいてはいけません" sounds a little strange for me. (I am Japanese.) Teachers usually say テストでは辞書を使ってはいけません。

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