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  5. "Kateřino, kde jste?"

"Kateřino, kde jste?"

Translation:Kateřina, where are you?

September 10, 2017

25 Comments


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Annaphoric

Has the "j" in "jste" always been silent or was there a point in time where it was pronounced?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/VladaFu

In careful pronunciation (teachers, formal speaches, trained speakers in radio, TV or actors...) it is pronounced even today.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/VladaFu

I hope some automatic translator can help with this:

"Výslovnost tvarů slovesa býti: jsem, jsi, jsme, jste, jsou. Trávníček žádá, aby se počáteční j- nevynechávalo, i když je tato výslovnost poněkud obtížná (s. 48). Z jeho formulace však není dosti jasné, zdali tuto výslovnost žádá i v případech, kdy předchází na př. slovo zakončené souhláskou (byl jsem). Jedlička konstatuje, že v přítomných tvarech slovesa býti se někdy j- nevyslovuje ani ve spisovné češtině. Zpravidla se však vyslovuje j- v těchto tvarech po samohlásce (byla jsem). VSČ ještě zpřesňuje pravidlo o výslovnosti těchto tvarů: počáteční j- se vyslovuje tehdy, jsou-li tyto tvary přízvučné (Jste to vy? Jsem!), dále ve spojení se záporkou ne- (nejsou), anebo následují-li po slově zakončeném samohláskou (kromě i). Všude jinde dáváme z fonetických důvodů (obtížná výslovnost) přednost výslovnosti bez j-." (1956)

http://nase-rec.ujc.cas.cz/archiv.php?art=4491


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Shathu_Entayla

Why here "Kateřina" becomes "Kateřino"?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Nemesis_NaR

It is definitely described somewhere in Tips and Notes - Czech has 7 cases and one of them is Vocative which is used when you are calling/adressing someone. Therefore "Kateřino, Františku, dědečku, babičko, kde jste?"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Shathu_Entayla

Ooooh! So, it's vocative. All right! I hould have read it. I will czech it now ;D. Díky!


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/CeRt1f1eDNeRd

Yeah, first its Katerino then its Katerina. I don't get it. Shouldn't it be Katerina?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BoneheadBass

Based on what we've learned so far, whether it is KateřinA or KateřinO depends on whether she is the subject of the sentence (Kateřina) or you're addressing her (Kateřino). In this exercise, it should be KateřinO.

Names decline like other nouns, so she could be lots of other things, too! :-)


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Shathu_Entayla

I add something technical. The first case "Katerina" it NOMINATIVE case. the second one "Katerino" is VOCATIVE case. Nominative: subject that does the accion. Vocative: calling declension.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/FutureOfDenmark

what is the difference between .....kde jsi and .....kde jste,while Katerina is ONE how is she changing forms?


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/VladaFu

It can mean either:

Where your group of people is?

OR

Where are you? With the formal plural when you do not call Kateřina TY but VY but you are still using her first name. This combination is possible.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Milan888302

"Kde jsi?" means like "Where (only)you are?" and "Kde jste?" means "Where are you(and someone else)?". ☺️


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BoneheadBass

"Kateřino, kde jste?" can also refer to one person. If Kateřina is someone with whom the speaker does not have a close relationship, or if there is a "status" difference between Kateřina and the speaker, jste could be used instead of jsi. It is the more formal way of addressing her, in a case, for example, when she is your manager at work.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AgnusOinas

The "status" difference is a little bit of a misconception - it implies that the "lower status" person would use VY towards the "higher status" person, and the "higher status" person would use TY towards the "lower status" person - an asymmetrical/hierarchical use. This is roughly how it was done over 100 years ago, but no longer, since the Czech society is very egalitarian.

Tykání (ty jsi) and vykání (vy jste) are both used mutually among adults of any status. When you use VY with your boss/manager, he/she will also use VY back with you. We use VY mutually with any stranger we meet on the street, with most neighbors, and basically anyone who is not a friend. When two people decide they want a more informal/casual/personal/close relationship, they will start using TY - again mutually.

TY/VY is only used asymmetrically between kids and adults, i.e. children use VY when talking to most adults. They use TY towards family members and also some friends of the family who explicitely give the children permission to address them as TY (and some kids may be uncomfortable with that). On the other hand, everybody uses TY when talking to children. The closer a person gets to adulthood, the more people will gradually switch to VY when addressing them. Some older people might stick to TY even when talking to people in their early twenties.

Summary: the distinction is about age and familiarity/formality, not status per se.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/BoneheadBass

Thank you for your amplifying remarks.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Alice805457

Ah! So as in some dialects in American English, it's like "Kateřina, where are you?" versus "Kateřina, where are y'all?"


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/DPan76

No, it's just a polite why to refer to only one person. French has tu/vous, but English really has nothing similar.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AgnusOinas

It can be both. And since the first name is used here ("Kateřino"), it's actually more likely that the question refers to more people (where are you guys). The combination of the polite/formal VY (French vous) with first name address is possible, but not very common in today's Czech.

By the way, DPan76, I often get a mail with your comment but when I go to the forum to answer it, it's no longer there. Earlier today it happened with the "Yesterday she was looking for her body." question.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/YDang93

Since the lesson is titled "Thou", I wrote "Kateřina, where art thou?", but this was not accepted.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/VladaFu

It is really obsolete English, it is not accepted. Even if it were, this sentence is using VY and thou is the equivalent of TY. So it would be an incorrect, not just archaic, translation.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/_ginzburg

Yes, it's funny how many people assume that "thou" is the "respectful" form, just because it is archaic now. As you said, thou was actually the informal version, so the equivalent of the Cech ty, not vy.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/dulejr

Is it common to use vocative for female names in everyday talk? In Serbian we rarely use vocative for f. names only for male names.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/VladaFu

Always for everyone.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/Marko195

Dule, kod nas se nekada koristi vokativ i za ženska imena, ali kratka (dvosložna sa dugim akcentom), npr. Saro, Maro, Jelo, Neno, Miro, Jano, Zlato, Stano, Majo itd. a kod Čeha se uvek koristi za sva imena.


https://www.duolingo.com/profile/AgnusOinas

But if your name is Marko, the vocative will be the same Marko even in Czech :D (because Czech has no masculine nouns ending in -o).

On the other hand, if you were Czech, your name would be Marek and that would then change to Marku in the vocative.

And feminine nouns ending in -e in Czech also have the same form in the vocative, e.g. Lucie, Marie, Žofie (nom.=voc.).

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