How to say "Willkommen in unsere kleine Gaststätte"?
I've seen this message in restaurant in Russia, and it is definitely wrong.
Does 'willkommen in' means "where to" (dative) or "where" (accusative)? Should 'klein' go in strong declension (because no article) or in weak declension (because 'unsere' should be already declined strong)?
It happens that 'unser' is declined as an article, and 'klein' is declined as 'after an article'. That is what they call 'strong' and 'weak'.
Yes, German is more "You are welcome in a place" (location) rather than "Welcome to a place" (destination of motion), thus it takes the dative case.
Your reply inlcudes the actual reason behind the grammar error. In Russian "Добро пожаловать в наш ресторан!" has the literal meaning of "you are welcome into our restaurant". It's an invitation, come in please. It's interesting, how languages handle similar situations in different ways.
I was asking about 'in' preposition.
Yes, but the case required after "in" can only be determined together with "Willkommen".
"In" is a two-way preposition, which can take either dative or accusative. Only the information around it (context) can determine which of the two cases to apply. "Willkommen in" is always used with dative.
And even if the message is writen inside restaurant? (not as an outside direction sign)
Yes. I think you got that confused in your first post: It is accusative that is associated with "direction", whereas dative is an indicator of "location".
Ich gehe in den Garten. (accusative -- I'm outside of the garden, and I move toward/into the garden)
Ich gehe im Garten. (dative -- I'm in the garden, moving around within the garden).
Indeed! I got it mixed, because it looks kinda more 'natural'.
Thank you for explanations!
klein takes mixed inflection because possessive adjectives such as unser inflect like the indefinite article ein in the singular.
Mixed inflection is basically: strong where the determiner has no ending, weak otherwise.
So unser kleiner Hund (mixed = strong), unsere kleine Gaststätte (mixed = weak), in unserer kleinen Gaststätte) (mixed = weak), for example.
It's still not clean, why 'unser' inflects like 'ein', but not like 'die'.
I'm not sure whether there's a good answer for "why".
That's just how it is -- mein, dein, sein, ihr, unser, euer, ihr, Ihr all inflect like ein or kein. (Like kein but unlike ein, they also have plural forms.)
"Willkommen in DER kleinen Gaststätte." "unserer", and "einer" -- all are dative (f).
unser kleiner Hund is masculine, while unsere kleine Gaststaette is feminine. That's why they're different, not because they're mixed, weak or strong, or whatever. http://germanforenglishspeakers.com/reference/complete-declension-tables/
The weak/strong/mixed are just linguistic terms to describe all this diversity of endings. We do not use the terms, but we should understand the logic.
In your tables they are callen "hard" and "soft" endings, which is the same.
The web page you linked to also distinguishes between weak, mixed, and strong inflection -- it just calls them "type 1, type 2, type 3".
type 1 / weak is used after the definite article
type 2 / mixed is used after the indefinite article and after possessive adjectives
type 3 / strong is used when there is no determiner
You can see from the tables in that page that the endings for type 2 / mixed are always the same as either the corresponding ending for type 1 / weak or for type 3 / strong.
thing is, whether it follows unser, die, ein, ....they are are all the same, not different, as insinuated above.
No, they are not always the same.
For feminine nouns, the adjective endings are the same after die and after unser/ein, but not for masculine or neuter nouns (e.g. der kleinE Hund, unser kleinER Hund).
And if there is no determiner at all, then even feminine nouns will act differently: der Geschmack kaltER Milch versus der Geschmack der kaltEN Milch / unserer kaltEN Milch.
I have aggregated everything in single table: https://www.evernote.com/shard/s105/sh/21512f1b-b4ef-4274-8bed-ec8e0714bff5/12b61ca8e9e53ea933b685852de28704
It seems like 'determiner with no ending' happens only in three cases: Das ist ein Pferd (N Nom) mögen ein Pferd (N Acc) Das ist *ein Hund (M Nom)
And in cases of N Gen and M Gen, this rule does not work anyway - no determiner at all, and 'weak' ending of adjective.
Do I miss something?
I'm not sure what you're referring to with "this rule", but yes, the genitive singular ending for adjectives before masculine and neuter nouns is -en if they have no determiner, rather than the -es one might expect by the rule "the ending is the same as that of the definite article".
Some of the examples in your table are unnatural (e.g. ein Zeug and mögen großen Hund sound like "a stuff" and "like big dog" -- using the indefinite article before uncountable Zeug/"stuff" on the one hand, and leaving off the personal pronoun before a verb and the indefinite article before countable Hund/"dog" on the other hand), but if it helps you remember the article, I suppose it's OK.
There's also one mistake: diesen kleine Hund should be diesen kleinen Hund.
Also, unless you're in Switzerland or Liechtenstein, your gross- should be groß-.
You might want to consider using uncountable rather than countable nouns as your example, e.g. der Wein, die Milch, das Wasser, as uncountable nouns work better without a determiner -- roter Wein "red wine" sounds more natural than rote Katze "red cat".
Or nouns that can be countable or uncountable, e.g. Wein or Brot. (But since you use mein to exemplify mixed inflection rather than ein, purely uncountable nouns work fine as well.)
And finally: manch solch welch are sometimes used without an ending and the adjective would then take strong inflection (no preceding determiner) rather than weak -- e.g. manch großer Hund, solch starker Wein, welch guter Wein "many a big dog; such strong wine; what a good wine".
But what should I take for uncountable in plural? Or would just "hungrig Tiere" be fine?
Ah yes, uncountable things don't have a plural :)
hungrige Tiere is fine (note final -e) - since there is no positive indefinite article in German, indefinite plural nouns simply have no article in a positive sentence and adjectives use the strong inflection.
(There is a negative indefinite article, e.g. keine hungrigen Tiere.)
Thanks alot! I'll try to fix this issues.
Would personal names work well with "zero article + adjective" ?
And what are the cases when 'manch/solch/welch' used without inflection - can they be determined, or they just happen occasionaly?
No, personal names wouldn't work well with an adjective and without an article - things like "Big Sven" would be der große Sven with article in German.
manch/solch/welch with and without inflection have different meanings, I think.
manch + singular adjective = "many a(n) ...", while mancher/manche/manches = "some" -- probably more common in the plural, manche = some, several.
solch without inflection and without article is like an adverb: solch guter Wein = so good wine, wine that is so good; rather than "such good wine" in the sense of "such wine which is good". With inflection, it's usually in the plural: solche Weine = such wines, wines of that type.
In the singular, I'd use it together with the indefinite article. As an adverb: solch ein guter Hund = such a good dog (in the sense of "a dog who is good like that"; as a determiner: ein solcher guter Hund = such a good dog (in the sense of "a good dog like that"). The difference is whether the solch applies to the adjective or to the noun.
And welch without inflection I'd compare to "what a ..." while welch with inflection is "which": welcher gute Wein = which good wine / welch guter Wein "what a good wine".