How to say "Willkommen in unsere kleine Gaststätte"?

[deactivated user]

    I've seen this message in restaurant in Russia, and it is definitely wrong.

    Does 'willkommen in' means "where to" (dative) or "where" (accusative)? Should 'klein' go in strong declension (because no article) or in weak declension (because 'unsere' should be already declined strong)?

    September 12, 2017

    27 Comments


    https://www.duolingo.com/Heike333145

    You are right: It should be dative "in unserer kleinen Gaststätte".

    As the naive native speaker that I am, I can't comment on the weak and strong declension aspects. I just say and write German sentences. ... There are certainly others who can give explanations.

    September 12, 2017

    [deactivated user]

      It happens that 'unser' is declined as an article, and 'klein' is declined as 'after an article'. That is what they call 'strong' and 'weak'.

      September 12, 2017

      https://www.duolingo.com/mizinamo

      Yes, German is more "You are welcome in a place" (location) rather than "Welcome to a place" (destination of motion), thus it takes the dative case.

      September 13, 2017

      https://www.duolingo.com/margusoja

      Your reply inlcudes the actual reason behind the grammar error. In Russian "Добро пожаловать в наш ресторан!" has the literal meaning of "you are welcome into our restaurant". It's an invitation, come in please. It's interesting, how languages handle similar situations in different ways.

      September 15, 2017

      https://www.duolingo.com/slamRN

      Willkommen means "welcome". Maybe you already knew that, I was not sure.

      September 12, 2017

      [deactivated user]

        I was asking about 'in' preposition.

        September 12, 2017

        https://www.duolingo.com/Heike333145

        Yes, but the case required after "in" can only be determined together with "Willkommen".

        "In" is a two-way preposition, which can take either dative or accusative. Only the information around it (context) can determine which of the two cases to apply. "Willkommen in" is always used with dative.

        September 12, 2017

        [deactivated user]

          And even if the message is writen inside restaurant? (not as an outside direction sign)

          September 12, 2017

          https://www.duolingo.com/Heike333145

          Yes. I think you got that confused in your first post: It is accusative that is associated with "direction", whereas dative is an indicator of "location".

          Ich gehe in den Garten. (accusative -- I'm outside of the garden, and I move toward/into the garden)

          Ich gehe im Garten. (dative -- I'm in the garden, moving around within the garden).

          September 12, 2017

          [deactivated user]

            Indeed! I got it mixed, because it looks kinda more 'natural'.

            Thank you for explanations!

            September 12, 2017

            https://www.duolingo.com/mizinamo

            klein takes mixed inflection because possessive adjectives such as unser inflect like the indefinite article ein in the singular.

            Mixed inflection is basically: strong where the determiner has no ending, weak otherwise.

            So unser kleiner Hund (mixed = strong), unsere kleine Gaststätte (mixed = weak), in unserer kleinen Gaststätte) (mixed = weak), for example.

            September 13, 2017

            [deactivated user]

              It's still not clean, why 'unser' inflects like 'ein', but not like 'die'.

              September 13, 2017

              https://www.duolingo.com/mizinamo

              I'm not sure whether there's a good answer for "why".

              That's just how it is -- mein, dein, sein, ihr, unser, euer, ihr, Ihr all inflect like ein or kein. (Like kein but unlike ein, they also have plural forms.)

              September 13, 2017

              https://www.duolingo.com/mainad

              "Willkommen in DER kleinen Gaststätte." "unserer", and "einer" -- all are dative (f).

              September 16, 2017

              https://www.duolingo.com/mainad

              unser kleiner Hund is masculine, while unsere kleine Gaststaette is feminine. That's why they're different, not because they're mixed, weak or strong, or whatever. http://germanforenglishspeakers.com/reference/complete-declension-tables/

              September 16, 2017

              [deactivated user]

                The weak/strong/mixed are just linguistic terms to describe all this diversity of endings. We do not use the terms, but we should understand the logic.

                In your tables they are callen "hard" and "soft" endings, which is the same.

                September 16, 2017

                https://www.duolingo.com/mizinamo

                The web page you linked to also distinguishes between weak, mixed, and strong inflection -- it just calls them "type 1, type 2, type 3".

                type 1 / weak is used after the definite article

                type 2 / mixed is used after the indefinite article and after possessive adjectives

                type 3 / strong is used when there is no determiner

                You can see from the tables in that page that the endings for type 2 / mixed are always the same as either the corresponding ending for type 1 / weak or for type 3 / strong.

                September 16, 2017

                https://www.duolingo.com/mainad

                thing is, whether it follows unser, die, ein, ....they are are all the same, not different, as insinuated above.

                September 16, 2017

                https://www.duolingo.com/mizinamo

                No, they are not always the same.

                For feminine nouns, the adjective endings are the same after die and after unser/ein, but not for masculine or neuter nouns (e.g. der kleinE Hund, unser kleinER Hund).

                And if there is no determiner at all, then even feminine nouns will act differently: der Geschmack kaltER Milch versus der Geschmack der kaltEN Milch / unserer kaltEN Milch.

                September 16, 2017

                [deactivated user]

                  I have aggregated everything in single table: https://www.evernote.com/shard/s105/sh/21512f1b-b4ef-4274-8bed-ec8e0714bff5/12b61ca8e9e53ea933b685852de28704

                  It seems like 'determiner with no ending' happens only in three cases: Das ist ein Pferd (N Nom) mögen ein Pferd (N Acc) Das ist *ein Hund (M Nom)

                  And in cases of N Gen and M Gen, this rule does not work anyway - no determiner at all, and 'weak' ending of adjective.

                  Do I miss something?

                  September 16, 2017

                  https://www.duolingo.com/mizinamo

                  I'm not sure what you're referring to with "this rule", but yes, the genitive singular ending for adjectives before masculine and neuter nouns is -en if they have no determiner, rather than the -es one might expect by the rule "the ending is the same as that of the definite article".

                  Some of the examples in your table are unnatural (e.g. ein Zeug and mögen großen Hund sound like "a stuff" and "like big dog" -- using the indefinite article before uncountable Zeug/"stuff" on the one hand, and leaving off the personal pronoun before a verb and the indefinite article before countable Hund/"dog" on the other hand), but if it helps you remember the article, I suppose it's OK.

                  There's also one mistake: diesen kleine Hund should be diesen kleinen Hund.

                  Also, unless you're in Switzerland or Liechtenstein, your gross- should be groß-.

                  You might want to consider using uncountable rather than countable nouns as your example, e.g. der Wein, die Milch, das Wasser, as uncountable nouns work better without a determiner -- roter Wein "red wine" sounds more natural than rote Katze "red cat".

                  Or nouns that can be countable or uncountable, e.g. Wein or Brot. (But since you use mein to exemplify mixed inflection rather than ein, purely uncountable nouns work fine as well.)

                  And finally: manch solch welch are sometimes used without an ending and the adjective would then take strong inflection (no preceding determiner) rather than weak -- e.g. manch großer Hund, solch starker Wein, welch guter Wein "many a big dog; such strong wine; what a good wine".

                  September 16, 2017

                  [deactivated user]

                    But what should I take for uncountable in plural? Or would just "hungrig Tiere" be fine?

                    September 20, 2017

                    https://www.duolingo.com/mizinamo

                    Ah yes, uncountable things don't have a plural :)

                    hungrige Tiere is fine (note final -e) - since there is no positive indefinite article in German, indefinite plural nouns simply have no article in a positive sentence and adjectives use the strong inflection.

                    (There is a negative indefinite article, e.g. keine hungrigen Tiere.)

                    September 20, 2017

                    [deactivated user]

                      Thanks!

                      September 20, 2017

                      [deactivated user]

                        Thanks alot! I'll try to fix this issues.

                        Would personal names work well with "zero article + adjective" ?

                        And what are the cases when 'manch/solch/welch' used without inflection - can they be determined, or they just happen occasionaly?

                        September 16, 2017

                        https://www.duolingo.com/mizinamo

                        No, personal names wouldn't work well with an adjective and without an article - things like "Big Sven" would be der große Sven with article in German.

                        manch/solch/welch with and without inflection have different meanings, I think.

                        manch + singular adjective = "many a(n) ...", while mancher/manche/manches = "some" -- probably more common in the plural, manche = some, several.

                        solch without inflection and without article is like an adverb: solch guter Wein = so good wine, wine that is so good; rather than "such good wine" in the sense of "such wine which is good". With inflection, it's usually in the plural: solche Weine = such wines, wines of that type.

                        In the singular, I'd use it together with the indefinite article. As an adverb: solch ein guter Hund = such a good dog (in the sense of "a dog who is good like that"; as a determiner: ein solcher guter Hund = such a good dog (in the sense of "a good dog like that"). The difference is whether the solch applies to the adjective or to the noun.

                        And welch without inflection I'd compare to "what a ..." while welch with inflection is "which": welcher gute Wein = which good wine / welch guter Wein "what a good wine".

                        September 16, 2017

                        https://www.duolingo.com/XxJelsyxX

                        Willkommen in unserer kleinen Gaststätte.

                        September 15, 2017
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