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  5. "Although they do not know us…

"Although they do not know us, they hate us."

Translation:Přestože nás neznají, nenávidí nás.

October 23, 2017



Why can’t we have “Přestože nás neznají, nás nenávidí”?


Second position for 'nás'


On the info page for pronouns, nás is not marked as requiring second position.


It would be helpful to provide information on the second position rule vis-a-vis nás. But it seems that it clearly applies, because of the 161 acceptable translations, ALL have nás in the second position in the clause, either following the verb, as shown above, or following a subject pronoun. So, at this point, I'd say that while I may not understand WHY it is that way, I do understand THAT it is that way. :-)


I did a search for similar sentences in the corpus and you can only get a clitic personal pronoun behind a comma with a relative clause that you insert after the first word of the sentence: "Ti, kteří nás neznají, nás nenávidí."

It is strange that you can say the same thing with a subordinate clause of cause: "Protože nás neznají, nenávidí nás." or with just a phrase "Kvůli své nenávisti nás nenávidí." or the uglier "Z důvodu své nás nenávidí.". That changes the order of the words that follow.


Where are info pages? I never never saw any explanation or any rule for anything, just always get corrections. And why does the Discuss- page work only on Android but not on Ipad?


The Tips and notes are available in your web browser (even mobile) when you select a skill and click on the lightbulb. You must ask in the Troubleshooting section of the main forum about Ipads.


Why isn't nesnáší acceptable?


"Nesnáší" (and "nesnášejí") are acceptable synonyms to "nenávidí". You may have made a mistake somewhere else in the sentence.


As I read this sentence, the emphasis in the second clause is on hate, which suggests 'nenavidi' ought to come at the end of the clause. Could you explain.


I can try. Clitic behavior overrides what you call "emphasis". If you get nothing else out of my comment, please try remembering that. It can get tricky fast.

"Nás" is an inconstant clitic, which means that it can function both as a clitic and as a regular word. However, in a two-bit clause, placing it other than second means that it goes first, and that placement automatically means that it is being used to provide a contrasting context (setup in which something other than us is being treated differently from us). In other words, ending the sentence ..., nás nenávidí would only make sense if it came in something like Vás mají rádi, ale nás nenávidí.

Note that "ale" in the second clause does not count as the first position, so "nás" is still in the first. I would rather explain this than give you an example using the conjunction like "přestože" up front and a clean second clause because the contrastive context gets much harder to establish. (Extra credit: Přestože naše jídlo vždy rádi snědí, nás nenávidí. The contrast is between our food and us. It would not make contrastive sense as clearly with "Přestože jeho mají rádi, nás nenávidí." because it is not clear that liking him should be correlated with not hating us.)

Here is my older post about the clitics you may want to refer to as you go: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/31466920


I wonder if trying to teach the ins and outs of Czech word order is even harder than trying to learn them...


It may be, if I am attempting to teach it in the order the forum questions are received. You are trying to learn it in the order it comes up for you somewhere, including in the course. Maybe my labors are better focused on making that second tree with its better w.o. staging as we move from skill to skill. To teach Czech w.o. really is a thing way bigger than an entire Duolingo course, so we just have to do what we can with what we got.

I heard mentions that new w.o. exercise types are being considered in response to the experience with the fresh Latin course. It is sad that with all the flexible w.o. language courses that the volunteers have already made here, only a course with direct involvement of the paid forces may produce movement, but we'll take it if it comes.


"To teach Czech w.o. really is a thing way bigger than an entire Duolingo course, so we just have to do what we can with what we got."

That I can easily believe!

Yesterday I was looking for some additional --understandable to someone new to the concept -- resources on topic/comment to help me get my head around it. I was surprised to find so few, and a lot of those were addressing East Asian languages. Of course, I was just Google-searching, and not for hours, but still... disappointing. I saved a useful Wikipedia link that VladaFu posted elsewhere, so at least that's a start. I'll probably put the quest aside for now, and hope to pick up some of this intuitively. But I think it'll be a while before I don't hate word order... :-)


There's no reason to hate word order :D You will be understood even if you don't get the most natural word order right. And gradually, the more you're exposed to the language, the more you'll be able to get the correct w.o. intuitively and you'll realize how wonderful a tool it is for expressing nuances of meaning (which you can normally express only in spoken English by stressing words, but not in written English because of the rigid sentence structure).

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