Immersion for new language combinations
Hello, this is a continuation of a discussion which was started in German here. https://www.duolingo.com/comment/2434590 and I wanted to continue in English to make it available for more people. French for German speakers was relased this week and we are very thankful for the great course as it is so much easier to learn a language with the help of ones native tongue! But soon we got to know that there is no immersion planned for the new language courses and I, with some other people, were quite disappointed about that. Translations to any other language than one's native one does not really make sense and I loved to train my translation skills! This is not only an issue for German speakers but it will be the same for all other language courses that are under construction now, as far as I've understood. I would just like to know if there are many other people that also would like to have Immersion for other language combinations? If there are many that want this, maybe it is possible to add it? Maybe somebody from the DL-team can tell us why it is not planned?
Hi! I'm Duolingo's community manager. Thanks for posting and also for giving this feedback to us. We are working on features for advanced users that will help you practice speaking and writing more than what is possible right now. These are both requests we got from lots of language learners from the community.
I'll let the team know that there is a lot of excitement around immersion coming to new courses. We are always open to feedback and questions :)
Thanks for weighing in on this, kristinemc. More lingots for you, even if you don't need any ;-)
I think it is very important for all of the newer languages to come to the immersion. You might have seen a comment of two against this in this discussion. But trust me, an overwhelming majority of incubator contributors as well as the community would want (read 'demand') this feature in the very near future. As a contributor, I would feel that we have been "robbed" if our languages do not show up for immersion and thereby help millions of learners translate millions of documents and create a better informed and connected world of tomorrow.
I would let your team plan on the timing of its release :)
I'm also a contributor and, like jitengore, I really hope all courses will get their immersion component, even if some get theirs sooner than others :) I get the impression the exercises from the skills tree alone are not complex enough for a learner to really learn a language..
Thank you Kristinemc for letting them know. It is good to know for us that what we discuss here is heard by the responsible ones. Thanks!
I would like to grab the attention of duolingo towards the wordwise practice .Earlier this site used to give the information about the words we practiced in the lessons and also some information about that words with the framing of few sentence . So, I would like to request duolingo to please start that thing again as it was very helpful.And also to show the words that we had practiced.
Hi Yash11, that information is still available, but only for a certain number of skills early on. If you enter the Skill and scroll down past the lesson modules, you should find some explanations, conjugations charts, etc. These don't continue throughout the course however. I am uncertain why though.
but earlier there was the explaination of the words learnt in lessons with the sentence formation after the completion of the lessons. kindly ,try to get that thing back...please.
I though the reason for this to be the courses still being beta. It somehow makes sense to stabilise the courses first, to establish a community before rushing to the immersion.
Immersion is not only for english natives. There is already the opportunity to translate from english to german. And your expertise in knowing French is needed to "debug" the German-French course.
My personal impression of the immersion is, that a critical mass is needed before it is "fun". In the immersion from English to German is not too much activity (the course is the smallest level 3 course with half a million students). Some sentences get upvoted/changed weeks after the submission. Most of the time I have problems to relate to the translation and remember, why I translated a sentence in a specific way. It is hard to reach higher levels because only few are rating you. And many are not German natives, who submit phrases with questionable grammatical constructions and false genders etc...
For a certain order, the course should first get stable, then get mobile, then become level three with all privileges. The mobile version is expected for end of April.
I agree, once the courses are out of beta, the immersion should include them.
I totally agree. We could even use the same articles that are already there for translation into english.
I think that to do immersion at all, your native language should be either the target language or the source language. If it is the source language, you should never attempt to edit an existing translation, but you can probably learn a lot from watching what happens when you create a sentence in the target language and then the native speakers clean it up for you.
Duolingo should actually enforce this in software.
That said, whenever a document is submitted to immersion for translation, I agree that it should be available for translation into any target language. That makes a lot of sense.
I do agree with you, but for translating from a second language to another second language. It can be done, as long as it's not for a professional quality translation (like many non-commercial texts submitted by users on Duo), but for learning purposes and when someone has a very good mastery of the target language. For example, I do translate Italian to English, even if my native language is French. But there is no Italian for French speakers course (and apparently, there won't be an immersion section even if the course is made).
I also agree and want to express my desire for the immersion feature for all language combination. I've tried some French to English translations but my english is of course not as perfect as a native speaker's. So translations to my own mother tongue would be much more effective, for me, and also for clients of translations.
Yes, and it seems like it wouldn't be a tremendous programming feat to port the same feature to the other languages.
Yes agreed. It seems like Immersion for all language combinations is essential.
There will be no Immersion for other languages? Can we have somebody from Duo confirm that please and if yes then tell us why? I would be very disappointed if that were to be true.
I'm pretty sure there is no immersion YET, because the languages you're talking about are not in Phase 3. Once they do enter phase 3 I would bet anything that immersion will be available.
there was actually a message in German saying that the immersion for other languages is not planned at all
oh!? weird.. i can't believe this is true :( I don't understand why they wouldn't. Unless it's just too much to handle and they only wish to translate english documents into X language
I don't think it is a question of bandwidth. I really don't understand this fully but whatever is coming in the way and blocking Duolingo from extending Immersion to newer languages is NOT a good thing for the world.
I really would like to see a resolution on this soon so that the many-languages-to-many-languages Immersion model can become a reality. That is what would truly reflect the real world.
The Swedish course came out last Monday (whoopie!) and I was wondering how long it might take for it to pass out of the beta form; or rather (more directly) how long until immersion will be added?
Unfortunately, there is a very petty reason as to why there won't be immersion for the new incubator courses. We all agree that the students need it, but it's simply not coming--don't hold your breath...
Strictly speaking, translation is unnecessary to learn/practice a language. Ignoring the issue of profiting from volunteer created work, there is still the issue of an interface (Duobot) that must translate from the different language combinations and in some cases it may not exist. This could in fact be worked out by translating from source language to interim language, then from that to target language, e.g. Swahili - English - Russian. Of course the problem there is that the translation will likely be far worse than translating from source to target.
I still think Duolingo can have their cake and eat it too, if they ask the course creators to waive their rights to remuneration, either that or they can be paid a once off fee. It is a sticky legal problem especially considering that the volunteers come from many countries with different laws.
It will be a shame if it is not possible to add immersion since there are many documents scientific/otherwise, that would profit from translations.
Translating the interface is part of the volunteers' work. There isn't very much of it for Immersion compared to this forum, the course trees, the notification mail, etcetera. This is not what is blocking it. Social issues are.
I see, it is hard to comment without knowing the full story. But I think that going forward they should maybe make it clear to volunteers what they are getting into, and what rights they are waiving. That way future courses can have immersion enabled without these "social" problems.
Also I don't see it as much of a problem, the contributors who want the immersion activated without remuneration can sign a waiver to avoid these problems. For those courses that the contributors disagree with adding it without remuneration they can have other means of negotiation.
Finally, the Duolingo staff has yet to make a clear statement regarding this issue, and until they do I shall assume that Immersion will exist for all courses. Since the goal of Duolingo is to translate the internet, and it can't possibly do that if some language courses don't have immersion.
Also, although it would be a pity, Duolingo can conceivably return all the volunteers IP,delete the volunteers work, and find new volunteers that don't have these problems to recreate a clean course, or alternatively they can simply hire professionals to do this. As it stands it doesn't make sense for Duolingo not to have immersion for Mandarin, Hindi, and Russian since they are such a big market, and for Duolingo as a business that would be a major oversight.
I think the word "volunteer" leaves very little unclear, to be honest, but I guess it is still open to interpretation. This, however, not so much: https://www.duolingo.com/terms
As for duolingo staff, they did make a very, very clear statement regarding this issue - to the volunteers. The volunteers have been fighting to change that ever since, because, well, to almost everybody the word "volunteer" was clear enough and they actually want their users to be able to learn the language rather than anything else.
Concerning the market, I think what a huge market would mean for duolingo is spending more money on server power, rather than any kind of revenue. Personally, after seeing the document quality of "immersion" translations, I consider crowdsourced translations next to useless for anything but learning languages.