fun with n-declination

[theotree]

Hi chaps,

I've just been given this exercise, I've tried a couple of different answers but computer keeps saying "nein"... Anyone got any ideas/explanations?

Fill in the gaps:

"Diese karitative Organisation hilft politischen _ (gefangen, Pl.) und kümmert sich um aus dem Land ___ (vertrieben, Pl.)"

Thanks!

[Vincent051]

Hi ! Gefangenen, Vertriebenen

[theotree]

Hi Vincent,

Thanks for the speedy reply.

That's what I thought. Nominalised participles are subject to n-declination and in this case Gefangenen is in dative and Vertriebenen in accusative, right?

Computer says that it should be Gefangenen and Vertriebene. Is this a bug?

[ThorusCrusius]

No, Gefangenen and Vertriebene (without -n) is correct. Can't explain grammar, though.

[az_p]

Offering the explanation to your answer (which I agree is correct):

Both blank spaces are nominalised participial adjectives ((past) participles of verbs acting as adjectives acting as nouns). Looking at each one separately:

Verb: fangen ("to catch")
Participle: gefangen ("caught")
As an adjective: gefangen ("imprisoned/captive")
Case required due to the sentence: dative (from verb helfen)
Gender: plural (given)
Is there an article: No
Adjective ending hence required: -en
Resulting noun: Gefangenen

Note that the nominalised adjective needs the same adjective ending as any normal adjectives preceding it.

Verb: vertreiben ("to drive out")
Participle: vertrieben ("driven out")
As an adjective: vertrieben ("displaced")
Case required due to the sentence: accusative (from preposition um)
Gender: plural (given)
Is there an article: No
Adjective ending hence required: -e
Resulting noun: Vertriebene

This is verified by Canoo.net.

To answer the original question about n-declination for nominalised adjectives, that does not happen as a rule. It may appear that way a lot of the time, but it's more likely just an -en adjective ending (there are a lot of combinations that produce that). But accusative plural without an article is not one of them.

[theotree]

Hi az_p,

Thanks for a great explanation!

Yep, that was my mistake. Nominalised adjectives, it turns out, do not demand n-declination!

Thanks for the help everyone.

Theo

PS here is the site I got the question from, in case anyone's interested. The exercises on it are really good:

https://www.deutsch-lernen.com/learn-german-online/05_e_deklination_nomen.php

[ThorusCrusius]

Looks great :D It makes sense to have this formular like step-by-step go-through, so you've a landmark in the grammar jungle.
And Canoo.net is a good source, if you know how to find the right stuff there.

[stoopher]

"To answer the original question about n-declination for nominalised adjectives, that does not happen as a rule."

Is the term "n-declination" relevant at all here? I think not, but I would be happy to learn something new!

[az_p]

Are you asking what n-declination is?

http://germanforenglishspeakers.com/nouns/weak-nouns-the-n-declension/

[stoopher]

Have to reply to my own comment, as Duo won't allow another level of indentation.

"Are you asking what n-declination is?"

No, I just don't see the connection between that and nominalised participial adjectives. I thought the original poster was just confused, but your comment "that does not happen as a rule" made me think there can be a connection in certain circumstances. Perhaps I read too much into your wording.

[az_p]

@stoopher: I was mostly just hedging, because I do have something in the back of my mind, like maybe I encountered an exception once, or a word that looked like a nominalised adjective but these days is considered a totally normal noun and hence subject to n-declination...

Basically I just wanted to say "there is no rule that nominalised adjectives need n-declination", as that seemed to directly address the OP's query.

[Kathi403348]

"Diese karitative Organisation hilft politisch Gefangenen und kümmert sich um aus dem Land Vertriebenen." should be correct.
die politisch Gefangenen = the politically captured
die aus dem Land Vertriebenen = the people who were expelled from the(ir) country

hope that helps!

[az_p]

You've dropped the adjective ending from politisch completely, and somehow have Vertriebenen instead of Vertriebene. Why's that?

[Hannibal-Barkas]

if you say "die aus dem Land vertriebenen Personen" the "n" would be right.

[az_p]

Sure, but that's a different sentence.