I was marked correct with "who loves me, follows me"
The "correct solution" says: "If you love me, follow me." How is the if implied?
The second part of the sentence ("mi segua") is the subjunctive part. Think of it like a command: "follow me!" Think of the "chi" more like "whoever" in this case. Literally something like, "whoever loves me, follow me!" or "whoever loves me should follow me." The "if..." version is just a less literal and more natural sentence that means the same thing.
It was a citation, taken from the Italian version of the film "The Story of Joan of Arc".
According to google it was from a jeans add campaign. Citazione corretta dal Vangelo secondo Matteo: Se qualcuno vuol venire dietro a me rinneghi se stesso, prenda la sua croce e mi segua.
Amazed by your knowledge and references as always sandra but is an italian film (dubbed i presume) the best authority? Would the translation with "if" be generally accepted? Thanks for all your help in the past.
It's the usual English translation of Jesus' words - I suppose one would need to go back to the original Aramaic or Greek as well!
There is no 'if' in the original (the movie). The citation is: ' Now let all those who love me... follow me!' http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0151137/?ref_=tttr_tr_tt under 'Did You Know?'; 'Quotes' 'see more'.
Ah! colloquialisms taken from old movies... Always such a huge assist when learning a new language...
"Segua" is a sort of imperative form here. If it had been "segue" you could well have translated it as "follows, but in this case it is more a command than a consequence.
I thought the same - who loves me, follows me. Really, I can't see why "Se" was not used. I consider myself right, DL wrong for not using "se".
Yes, possibly. And, miraculously, a very significant number of saints decided to touch down in italy. Funny that.
I used "the one who loves me, follows me" and it was marked as wrong. Does anybody knows why my phrase is wrong?
I did the same and was marked as wrong four years later. Why? I can't see anything wrong in this translation. It's more literal than the quote from the Bible but hey, I'm not here to learn that one!
would you be able to use the subjunctive with amare to underline uncertainty? like chi mi ami mi segua
is that correct too, when you really want to say whoever (if they exist)?
If you have an "i" device, I can recommend "iBibbia" from the App store. There was another one on the Google Play that I had for Android that allowed for different language versions side-by-side, but I found that made me lazy!
Try Bible Gateway (online version not the app); it has almost every translation of the Bible there & you can read the editions parallel to one another. I use The New King James Version NKJV side by side with Nuova Riveduta 1994 (NR1994) & it's an almost word for word translation for many verses.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis++1%3A1&version=NKJV;NR1994 Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesi 1:1 Nel principio Dio creò i cieli e la terra.
Here are a couple of thoughts. First, I don't know whether the Italian sentence was inspired by the Bible, or by a movie about Joan of Arc. The real question for us Duo learners is whether the Italian is standard grammatical Italian. I believe it is, but that the English translation given, while not absolutely wrong, is not literal, and therefore has misled some of the commenters here.
First, the 'mi segua' is not necessarily imperative. It is subjunctive. True, the subjunctive is often used as a polite form (Lei form) that substitues for the imperative. But the subjunctive has broader application than that. Whoever is speaking to his or her followers here may not be using the Lei form of address. Probably not. In any case, I think the subjunctive here means 'you should follow me/you ought to follow me' rather than a simple imperative 'follow me'.
Second, the 'chi mi ama' is not literally 'if you love me' but more like 'whoever loves me'. Literally it is 'who loves me' but this is not a question so in English we say 'he who loves me' or 'whoever loves me'.
So the translation into English here that I like is "Whoever loves me follows/should follow me." That English is probably a little less natural than the English 'If you love me, follow me' but it is less confusing to us beginners as we try to go back and forth between the two languages.
Who loves me follows me is perfectly good spoken English, but does not mean the same as if you love me follow me. My guess is duolingo is using if because follows me is subjunctive. Does the italian really express a more doubtful outcome/a request which would make if the correct translation?
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«Qui m'aime me suive» Somehow I know the French version... the syntax is the same )
Citazione corretta: Se qualcuno vuol venire dietro a me rinneghi se stesso, prenda la sua croce e mi segua. (dal Vangelo secondo Matteo, 16, 24, CEI; confronta anche Mc 8, 34, Lc 9, 23 e Gv 12, 26) Erroneamente attribuita a Giovanna D'Arco e a Francesco Petrarca. Il versetto evangelico è usato nella maggior parte dei casi in forma errata. Esempi sono in Alberto Moravia, Gli indifferenti, Mario Soldati, Le lettere da Capri e Giovanni Guareschi, La scoperta di Milano. Lo stesso Papa Paolo VI, nell'omelia del 16 febbraio 1972, Mercoledì delle Ceneri, a Santa Sabina, cita la frase nella forma "Chi mi ama mi segua; ciascuno prenda la sua Croce e la porti". Nel 1973, lo slogan "chi mi ama mi segua" compariva sui cartelloni pubblicitari curati da Oliviero Toscani ed Emanuele Pirella che reclamizzavano la marca di jeans "Jesus". Il tema religioso era ripreso anche da un'altra versione dei manifesti, con lo slogan "non avrai altro jeans all'infuori di me". L'accostamento tra frasi della Bibbia e immagini provocanti non mancò di scatenare accuse e polemiche. Del caso si occupò anche Pier Paolo Pasolini, sul Corriere della sera. In Sviluppo e progresso, saggio pubblicato in Pasolini. Saggi sulla politica e sulla società, a cura di Walter Siti, Mondadori, Milano 1999, Pasolini commenta l'Italia "tappezzata di manifesti rappresentanti sederi con la scritta «chi mi ama mi segua»" dicendo "tra l'«Jesus» del Vaticano e l'«Jesus» dei blue-jeans, c'è stata una lotta. [...] Il Gesù del Vaticano ha perso."
Someone else has mentioned that the French version is 'Qui m'aime me suive,' which, according to my sources (Word Reference), was originally said by Philippe VI of France. It would seem that it is still used colloquially in French when you are doing something and want your friends to join in. My guess is that there is a similar expression expression in Italian. In English, in that context, the closest equivalents might be something like 'Are you with me/Who's with me?' or 'All for one ...!' Here's a link to the French to English translation and forum posts on Word Reference: http://www.wordreference.com/fren/qui%20m'aime and here to the Italian to English (where it says it's a Biblical quote): http://www.wordreference.com/iten/chi%20mi%20ama%20mi%20segua from the one It>En forum post, I think it does have a more modern/colloquial meaning in Italian too.
I'm with you in principle. I still think the Italian (that's what I came across first in the exercise) is better translated as "Whoever loves me..." or "Everyone who loves me..." I still did not come across anything convincing explaining the "If you..." in Duolingo's translation - Gospel passage or not (and I'm all for that).
"Who loves me" so why is the dependent clause subj? And if Chi is "who" then why is it not followS me? I read above the movie translation but for "if" I will include "se." And for "you" is tu. I just keep wondering if this phrase is similar to Italian slang.
It's a colloquial translation, happens with idioms. The literal translation is 'Whoever loves me, follows me." Inferring that if someone should love whoever it is, then they will follow them. The "If you love me, follow me" is not a literal translation, but does convey the meaning quite well.
No, as stated above, NOT literal. My native Italian boss gave me this insight: this is definitely NOT a conditional sentence in Italian, and so the English should not really go in that direction. Following from his conversation, I believe the more literal translation would go like this (and please remember that English - at least American English - has all but forgotten the subjunctive): "(The one) who loves me, let him follow me!" Remember that a standard use of the subjunctive is in wishes or blessings, in earlier times often begun with "Would that ..." or "May..." Hence, my translation of "Let..." I really don't know that this sentence deserves all this attention, but it definitely the subjunctive ("segua" from "seguire") being used here.
Thanks for providing these details. I was already inclined to your view i.e. suggesting that because it is subjunctive the given translation could not be a literal one; but I am still grateful for your more authoritative and detailed contribution!
Sounds more like "sigua" than "segua". That's alright I write with a "pin" myself.
Duo gave me this phrase to complete about 5 times (literally) in one lesson. All were the same format.
I translated the sentence as "Whoever loves me will follow me", thinking of the implied biblical imperative. Alas, Duo felt that I was incorrect. Anybody think my translation works?
I (a male) translated as "She who loves me, follows me." Duo corrected as "HE who loves me, follows me." Does that make any sense to anyone?
The Italian "chi" is gender neutral. It means here "who" or "whoever". You could translate into ""Whoever loves me ..." if you want to stay gender neutral in English, or even "They who love me ...".
For whatever reason, English does not begin this kind of sentence with a bare "who", but requires "he who" or "she who" or "they who", if not "whoever".
In older English (let's say up till about 75 years ago), it was quite common to use the masculine pronoun for general statements that apply to both sexes. So classically you see a lot of "he who ..." but rareley "she who...". unless you are speaking only of women.
Understood. Thank you. I knew "Chi" was gender-neutral, which is why I thought "She" would work.
It translates "who me love, me follow" if im talking about me, then how is this placed on a second person?
In standard Engish, the translation you are suggesting would be: "Who(ever) loves me follows me".
You are right that that translation does not use the second person ("you").
For whatever reason, DL has chosen a very non-literal translation as its featured translation. However, I believe DL will also accept "who loves me follows me" or "who loves me should follow me".
where in the Italian sentence is the conditional conjunction IF? isn't chi a pronoun?
The is no "if" in the Italian we are given. The DL Engish translation here is not literal. The literal translation into English is more like "He who loves me should follow me" or "Whoever loves me should follow me".
I am in level "idioms" How can we know the meaning of this idioms if we never learnt them. May be I miss some thing when learning ?
I suppose that this sentence was taken from Mylène Farmer's song "L'amour n'est rien" – "Qui m'aime me suive !", but of course, it may be a pure coincidence and nothing else. Yet, I simply love it. :)
I think "love me or leave me" should be accepted here - it has exactly the same idiomatic meaning.
"Follow me if you love me" was not accepted. Thought that was a decent translation...
Pardon! You're right. I mixed up an 'a' and 'i' order. It's actually: "Se mi ami, mi segua." But what I was more focused on to say was, that "chi" shouldn't be used here, but "se."
I thought, we were learning Italian here and not the quotes from the Bible. :) Anyway, thank you!
It's not only a quote. It's a common way to speak in italian. Everyone could use this sentence..
Ariaflame, I agree with you except for one detail. I think the Italian 'segua' here is subjunctive but not necessarily imperative. So I would not use the English imperative 'follow me' but a non-imperative translation of the Italian subjunctive: '(He) who loves me, follows/should follow me.'
"Se (lui) mi ama, (tu) mi segui" it's uncorrect. In this case subject of loving and following is the same. Coloro (quelli) che mi amano dovrebbero seguirmi.