"There are all sorts of bags in this store."
Well I'm glad I wasn't the only one who felt having いろいろ after かばん was a little off. Odd that the mods here haven't made the more natural options available as answers.
compare these 2 examples of "Post-GA-modifiers"
i think in terms of vocalized emphasis on what comes after the が, as if たくさん is most important. 春には庭に花がたくさん咲きます
I think この店は鞄が色々あります is natural AS WRITTEN, if and only if the vocalized emphasis is on 色々 (contrary to opinions which ignore the desired 'vocalized emphasis"/nuance of this particular grammatical arrangement)
[does anyone else agree with this "vocalized emphasis/ nuance" approach to the "post-GA modifier" (number, quality, etc)?]
B. Similarly, which nuances can be ascribed to:
I think rather than "post-GA modifiers" it would be more correct to think of this distinction more as "clause-initial adverb" vs "pre-verb adverb". The relative position (or even existence) of a が term is actually kinda irrelevant. We're really just talking about whether it's more natural to put an adverb at the beginning of the whole clause, or to put it right before the verb, which usually depends on what you want to emphasize.
I think it is slightly complicated in this case, however, by the fact that 色々 can be either an adverb or a な-adjective, so if it comes before 鞄, it is more natural to use it as an adjective. As such, in this case, we're actually talking about "adjective vs pre-verb adverb", which is a bit of a special case.
But to be honest, I think this is all really nitpicking to a large extent. It is true that placing an adverb directly before the verb generally puts more emphasis on the adverb. That's really true whether or not one uses vocal emphasis with it. I do agree that I think in English we would tend to make this distinction using vocal emphasis, but that doesn't mean it's needed in Japanese, because the differing word order implies it already. I'm not a native, but I strongly suspect that which variant sounds more "natural" likely depends a lot on the context and situation where one is saying it, more than anything.
As for は vs には, using は puts emphasis more on the store itself, while には puts more emphasis on what is in the store. It's also worth noting that the 「X は Y があります」construction is the common way to say "X has Y" in Japanese (but には is not as much). So in my (admittedly non-native) reading:
- この店は色々な鞄があります -- "This store has all sorts of bags" (basic "X has Y" sentence)
- この店は鞄が色々あります -- "This store has a wide variety/selection of bags" (not only does this store have bags, but it has all sorts of them)
- この店には色々な鞄があります -- "In this store, there are all sorts of bags" (speaking about the contents of this store, there are all sorts of bags here)
- この店には鞄が色々あります -- "In this store, there are all sorts of bags" (speaking about the contents of this store, not only are there are bags here, but there are all sorts of them too)
There is also potentially:
- この店には鞄は色々あります -- "In this store, regarding bags, there are all sorts of them here" (regarding what's in this store, if we're talking about bags (as opposed to other things), there's all sorts of them)
- 鞄はこの店には色々あります -- "Regarding bags, as for this store, there are all sorts of them here" (on the subject of bags, compared to other places, you'll find all sorts in this store)
- 鞄はこの店に色々あります -- "Regarding bags, there are all sorts in this store" (if you want bags, this store has a good selection)
I could see situations where all of these could be more or less natural things to say. It depends a lot on context. And many of those contexts could be what someone was trying to express with that English sentence, so it's not really possible to know for sure here which is more natural than another in this case, IMHO.
This post is exquisite, a delight, a wonderous masterpiece of elevated minutiae, so impressive, beautiful, elegant and true -- the ideal of Greek beauty combined with that of a citronella Etrog fruit of glorious, eternal, non-withering goodness...
it has been 5 days since i felt this way about this post and have been unable to find the right words to express the ineffable, insurmountable joy of the conjoining passive and active intellects.
[disclaimer: many will feel that the 'right words' are yet to be found, because, them preceding words ain't it, y'all]
please reconsider: one unknown NATIVE speaker's style-preference is not enough !
EXAMPLE (evidence denouncing on trial !):
"I sang a lot of songs at the karaoke." Translation:カラオケで歌をたくさん歌いました。 (note preferred Duo post-particle position of くさん )
On the above, Sho_Japan simply prefers "いろいろ" and "くさん" before the last particle AND gets it wrong. How's it for "native credibility"?
Sho_Japan 16963 カラオケでたくさんうたいました was not accepted.2 YEARS AGO
unmemorablehero 15 Because that means, "I sang a lot at karaoke" you are missing songs [歌 ] in the sentence.2 YEARS AGO
ASIDE FROM THAT (arguments of support "native authority" mistaken):
(1) この店は= "This store" or "Concerning this store" [Duo's correct, original Japanese lesson example]
(2) この店には= "In this store" ["natural" or "perfect" is subjective argument vs "English prompt says literally in this store" is objective argument]
Closing remark: If Duo's Japanese answer is base of this lesson where "in this store" is not the main goal, but rather it is the Japanese original mentioning of the topic (topic marker!) "Concerning this store", then "more natural" and "perfect" MUST BE excluded and preferable MUST BE a circumstance to which the imagination goes and considers further that "IN" =には is not essential, as Duo answer shows to teach us in this lesson. この店は鞄が色々あります。think and imagine !
against possible objection (overruled!): Duo's English reflects the idiom of English, (as always) and not translating (as always) a more literally sounding "Concerning this store".
[NB: in fr/en course many native French argue subjectively and it is not a valid criterion]
the 2 comments assumed you were serious, the last statement that baffled, bewildered and bedazzled you assumed the opposite, i.e. ironic humor, as in Bergson:
and also Freud:
Her point, as I understood it, was "Don't follow blindly 1 native speaker's opinion" and she offers her own experience as one among many squabbling native French speakers who opine variously.
or was it rahter meant as a compliment that she laid it out so clearly?
I received mail to explain:
MilesBaker5 commented on "There are all sorts of bags in this store." Duolingo doesn't pay people to say things.
I think @MilesBaker5 was telling you without knowledge of your true intention: "joking" --
@marti_MG gave both points of view Yes, joking and No, joking.
@theluminary you did not understand 1st reponse of marti-MG and that references of bibliography are also JOKING with intellect and proper erudition. "Le rire" of Henri Bergson is studied since the High Schools of France and in "Senior Year" (terminale), for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=325KFNchmRc
I don't agree, because of the expressive intent of the "unnatural, but correct" sentence, which paints a perfect picture of real life: この店は鞄が色々あります。
Initially, I too looked for に in word bank, thought of Duolingo's intention and reviewed the difference between は and が, because I was "forced" by the word bank to resign myself to think of 店は as the 'habitual' and the 鞄が as the 'new and important' information.
TRUE INTENTION OF SENTENCE -- as given!
I also liked the ostensibly authentic Japanese feeling of placing 色々 after the が, which, in fact, allows the 色々 to be accentuated with surprise and excitement before あります --
therefore, IMHO, i hereby disagree with above native speaker (and 500+ upvotes and 25+ lingots) based on Duolingo's intended literary nuance and pedagogical purport.
yes 'wow' on one hand, but as a learner stricto sensu, we ought not rely on "feel good" theories and rather feel good and better when discovering our errors. Confirming our "instincts" excludes other correct sentence paradigms . [one might suppose that I feel strongly about this position -- due to above posted reasons: 1 native Japanese speaker's preference/ opinion is epistemologically unsound, inter alia]
Thank you for this comment. As a foreign speaker, I find it very useful to know what feels natural in a real life conversation. It makes my learning quicker, more purposeful and pleasant. Without the help of native speakers or proficient teachers, or comments like this one, it's rather hard to know such nuances.
Thank you for your comment. It's great to see that people are so active here on this forum with their contributions! You have actually intrigued me so much that I got in touch with another Japanese native speaker to ask about the difference in feel between these versions (as for her background, this person comes from and lives in Tokyo, completed her Master's in Japan and in the UK, is proficient in English, worked as a Japanese language tutor, and works for a fine art paper production company). She appears to confirm Sho_Japan's comment by saying that in this case (2) この店にはカバンがいろいろあります "works" but (3) この店にはいろいろなカバンがあります sounds "very natural".
to be clear, I almost always agree with "most common" , "preferred" or "most natural"--in those semantic and overall circumstantial parameters. However, since they express different nuances I am inclined to understand such distinctions and preserve the 'less common' expression based on the other nuance. I would ask "When/how/in which situation would "sentence p" express a nuance absent in "sentence q". [maybe, we need Japanese actors!]
Which is definitely a great approach in studies of the language beyond the elementary/absolute beginners level! At the basic level, though, it probably makes sense to find the golden mean between what's common and what's ideal as long as it's correct and serves the purpose of effective communication. Otherwise I guess some beginner learners would be led to extremes in pursuit of linguistics purism and/or even become discouraged from studying. [Btw., a good idea to introduce Japanese actors - maybe Duolingo is not that far from it having introduced these characters and speech bubbles ;) ].
My most recent (as non-Native both!!): "This store has all sorts of bags": この店は鞄が色々あります is a good translation and a natural sentence, differing from "There are all sorts of bags in this store": この店には鞄が色々あります.
So, even without に the two English translations are acceptable, because "There are [...] in this store" conveys same meaning as "This store has [...]"
i must admit my exaggerations and also acknowledge the eloquent style in which you expressed your gratitude. Separating that sentiment from all else, I understand the good place it comes from, so, although a beginner's class, I recommend this native speaker's live DuoLingo Events class, on Wednesday 9am EST https://us02web.zoom.us/j/3677257324
[NB: there was a more advanced class, but the numbers were low. With interest it might return!]
I'm definitely not an expert but I checked a little, the tooltip here suggest kanji, hiragana and katakana forms, and jisho.org suggests the katakana form as "alternate form". Apparently it is not a loan word but it is sometimes written in katakana "to convey a more formal tone of conversation" (based on wikitionary)
Wiktionary actually says "This is an example of a word that can be spelled with katakana to convey an INformal conversational tone, as カバン." It's not a foreign word, however it's not on the everyday kanji list − words like this are quite frequently written using kana, hiragana or katakana.
To talk about the place of existence, we use に. In this sentence we can use は、に、or には depending on the context.
We use で when we talk about something taking place at somewhere, i.e. making use of that location, happening at that location.
There is renovation work at this store.
at the time the word bank reflected the initial lesson: to learn/practice the construct [noun]が色々あります that's why there was no なin the word bank, but Duo's policy/strategy seems to try integrating all "acceptable answers", rather than impose the learning/practice of specific lessons.
@DanaRussell, I took a few minutes to read the comments and [added to] @elizadeux's post from 2 months ago:
 この店は鞄が色々あります is correct. 色々 is placed before the verb [-- qualifying 鞄 and placed after が, just as "counters" or たくさん.]
 この店は色々な鞄があります is also correct. When 色々 is before the noun 鞄 it is a な adjective and therefore requires な.
I asked much the same thing a while back and didn't seem to get much of an answer. From my own research looking around at various actual Japanese sentences since then, my general conclusion is this:
This is a bit of a special case, because 色々 can be used as either an adverb or an adjective.「色々鞄があります」is actually not technically grammatically wrong (because, as an adverb, 色々 can be placed in many places in the sentence and still work), however when 色々 is placed directly in front of a noun, it is almost always used as a な-adjective instead of an adverb (because it can be both), and so it is actually much more natural to say「色々な鞄があります」instead. Therefore, using it without the な there will probably sound a bit strange.
I have found a few examples where 色々 was used before a noun without な, but they're pretty uncommon, and from what I can tell mostly occurred in more formal-sounding documents, which may also have been a factor.
But basically, if 色々 is being used as an adverb, it is more natural to put it next to the verb. If it is placed next to a noun, it is more natural to use it as a な-adjective instead, which means there should be a な between it and the noun.
Many people have pointed out that 色々 is a な-adjective, but it can (as demonstrated in the "correct" answer) also be an adverb. Given that adverbs can usually be placed many places in the sentence (including after は / before a subject, etc), couldn't この店は色々鞄があります also be correct, simply interpreting 色々 as an adverb instead of an adjective, or is this just not possible because it must be considered an adjective in that case for some reason?
The いろいろ in the correct answer is an adjective. It only needs the な when it's directly modifiying the noun as in "この店にはいろいろなかばんがあります". I honestly don't know if your example is correct, but if you can use it as a modifiying adjective, you usually do that instead of using it as an adverb.
Umm, no, I'm pretty sure in the official answer it's functioning as an adverb. It would not be grammatically correct to have an adjective immediately preceding the verb (あります), so it must be an adverb there. The only time you can have an adjective immediately followed by a verb is when the verb is the copula (です), not for other verbs in general (that's one of the big things that makes the copula special).
I suspect there's actually two reasons this wasn't accepted. One is probably that it uses 色んな instead of 色々な. Leaving aside that AFAIK 色んな is not a vocabulary term which Duolingo has introduced at this point (so they probably weren't expecting anyone to use it here), it's also arguably a bit strange to use a fairly casual term like 色んな along with the polite version of あります in the same sentence.
The other more significant issue is indeed the use of では. The verb in use in this sentence is ある, and that verb does not use the particle で for expressing location. It uses に instead. So you need to use には, not では with that verb. In general, if you are using a compound-は particle like には/では/etc, it should be possible to remove the は part and still have the sentence be grammatically correct. In this case, この店で [...] あります would not be grammatically correct, so では does not really work here.
Thanks, that helps clear things up, but I'm not really sure about the では particle. I think that には is kind of just adding them together, so for example "as for at that place" or something along those lines, but is では also the same just with the で particle instead, or is it completely different. Either way could you please provide some examples of when you'd use it? Thanks a lot, and also feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about には.
I think your general idea about には isn't too far off, and yes, には and では both function in a similar way. They're both really just specifying a topic (は), but with an extra specifier (に or で) in front to clarify more precisely how that topic is supposed to actually relate to the rest of the sentence.
So in general, you can use には if the thing you want to make a topic is something which (if it weren't a topic) you would ordinarily specify using に, and you can use では if the thing you want to make a topic is something which (if it weren't a topic) would normally be added to the sentence using で, etc. As to which one of these is more appropriate in a given situation, as I mentioned, it depends on the verb and what part of the sentence you're "topicalizing". (Obviously, if the thing would normally be specified with が or を, then you would just use は by itself.)
So actually in the case of most verbs, if you wanted to say essentially "as for in (location)", then では would probably be appropriate, because with most verbs, で is used to specify a location where something occurs. The only reason it isn't appropriate in this case is because ある is special in that it normally uses に for that purpose, not で, so when you're using ある, you would want to use には instead.
そのレストランで食べました。-- "I ate at that restaurant."
そのレストランでは食べました。-- "As for (at) that restaurant, I ate (there)."
そのレストランに寿司があります。 -- "There is sushi at that restaurant."
そのレストランには寿司があります。 -- "As for (at) that restaurant, there is sushi (there)."
On the other hand, for most other verbs, に expresses a target or destination, so:
そのレストランに行きました。 -- "I went to that restaurant."
そのレストランには行きました。 -- "As for (to) that restaurant, I went (there)."
(Note that you can also technically do the same thing with へ (--> へは), but this doesn't happen as often, as many uses of へ are sorta interchangeable with に so people often just use には for that sort of thing instead.)
(Oh, I should note that this use of では as a topic particle should not be confused with the では that shows up in some other contexts such as ではありません (negative form of です), etc..)
(Sigh, we've gotten deep enough that Duolingo won't let me reply directly anymore)
@MilesBaker5, I'm not sure I understand your question about the difference between the first and second sentence. Do you mean what's the difference between using は and not using it?
If so, then it's really no different than the implications of using or not using the regular は (topic) particle, and really it's pretty similar to the difference between the corresponding English sentences I gave. They both say the same thing but the nuance and emphasis is different. Without は, it is a simple statement, but with は it puts the focus more on the topic ("as for ..."), as opposed to other things.
Sometimes this is done because you plan to say multiple things about the same topic, or it can also be used for contrast (i.e to say "unlike the other thing we were talking about, as for this thing..."), etc, or sometimes it's just done because the sentence feels more natural that way. There are actually a lot of potential nuance implications to using or not using は, which are too much to cover here, I think, but there are lots of articles out there on the net that try to explain it already.
I don't know (I hadn't realized this topic had so many downvotes. Yikes!)
But for anyone out there reading this, please, please, please do not downvote these sorts of question topics. If they get 5 or more downvotes, that means they will stop showing up on any search results, which means that people looking for help on this Duolingo question won't be able to find its associated topic anymore, or any of the useful information contained in the responses here.
(If anyone out there can hear me, please also come to this topic and help rescue it by upvoting it!)
な-adjectives replace な with に to become an adverb
静か Quiet・静かに Quietly
色々 is considered a な-adjective. It uses な to directly attach to a noun, but unlike most other な-adjectives it also can be used as an adverb without the use of a particle.
色々 • (iroiro) -na (adnominal 色々な (iroiro na), adverbial 色々に (iroiro ni))
色々 • (iroiro)
While Wiki suggests 色々に does exist, it is far more common to just not use a particle at all when using it as an adverb.
いろいろ is probably just an exception. http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/complete/adverbs
Ode to hubris!
At beginner level, whining haughty hexperts tell この店は色々かばんがあります 'more natural' and fail to see merit in この店は鞄が色々あります, which without it the course is not including a possible grammatical model. Is this conversational course? no, like masu stem connector lesson (
what about 色々-- な -- 鞄? no need of particle in official answer, underlining grammatical feature for beginner level practice. [when i am non-beginner, i have no need of commenting. So y'all beginner 'kata', ho! ]
Reminder: "laughter is irrelevant to grammar!"