Ön (plural of te) is not "you guys" in English
I am not a guy. "You guys" is informal slang although in the last year I have been hearing even TV announcers using it. However, in a language course it would only be identified as slang, not taught as a correct answer.
In the Southern U.S. they would substitute y'all, short for you all when they need to say you plural.
This is a problem for the English language for not having a separate word for you plural just as not having third person gender pronouns is a problem for Hungarian.
Also, current American usage has eliminated the feminine versions of occupations so there are no more actresses, just actors, for both genders and there are no longer stewardesses, but flight attendants. (Yikes, I'm starting to use the translation of hanem in English!)
Ön is not the plural of te. Ti is the plural.
there are 4 forms:
te (singular, informal you)
ti (plural informal you)
ön (singular formal you)
önök (plural formal you)
If you know some German, think of it as du = te, ihr = ti, Sie = ön, önök
Oops. I did know that but it was late and I was getting goofy, focusing on the translation of "ti" as "you guys". Thanks for the correction.
I guess I don't remember Hungarian as well as I thought I did. I understand everything but I need to build adult vocabulary.
My biggest problem right now is understanding the concept of postpositions such as this one :
"Ez allatt a lámpa alatt az asztal száraz." Is this supposed to mean that if I lift up the lamp I would find that underneath it the table is dry or are there a lot of lamps on the table and only under this one I find the table is dry, OR is the whole table dry? I'm not joking. I don't understand this.
This sentence makes more sense: "Nem a mellett az asztal mellett tanulok, hanem e mellett." because I am pointing out that I am studying at this table rather than that one.
Next question about this: I get that if there is an "a" it means "this" and if there is an "e" it means "that" as an abbreviation for prepositions az and ez, but sometimes the single abbreviated letter is connected to the adverb (?) and sometimes not.
Sentences in Duo are often presented several times, to translate from one language to another or to type what we hear. So:
Hat nagy híd van efölött a folyó fölött.]
But then the same sentence is written elsewhere as: E fölött a folyó fölött hat nagy híd van. This time the E is not attached to fölött so does this have to do with word order or is it a Duolingo bug?
Then here is one with the A attached: Afölött a tér fölött madarak repülnek.
Now the E is attached but it is at the beginning of the sentence.
But next time it is not attached. Ekörül a tér körül sok magas ház áll.
Ki áll a mellett a nagy sárga autó mellett? was correct but there was also a sentence with a mellett. I don't recall where I had a sentence using "amellet" but there was.
I found two good references about postpositions, but the second is a bit over my head and neither answers the question of whether the abbreviated preposition should be attached or not. If you, or anyone here can explain this a little further I would be very grateful.
I found an answer on a forum, I don't know how trustworthy, but sounds OK to me:
általában egybe írjuk őket: pl. "efölött lesz a kép", "afölé kéne tenni", "eközben bejött Béla", "eszerint elcsesztük az egészet",
de külön írjuk őket, ha közvetlenül utána megnevezzük, amire az "alá", "fölé" stb vonatkozik: "e fölött az asztal fölött lesz a kép", "a fölé a repedés fölé kéne tenni", "e szerint a számla szerint elcsesztük az egészet".
So they say:
usually written as one
but separatedly, if you really name the object right after it.
This means, the Duolingo sentences used this inconsistenty. It should be separated in all your examples. OR both attached and not attached should be accepted as correct in all these sentences.
"Ez alatt a lámpa alatt az asztal száraz."
I would pick your first answer as most likely: if I lift up the lamp I would find that underneath it the table is dry.
But that is also possible that the whole table is dry.
"I get that if there is an "a" it means "this" and if there is an "e" it means "that" as an abbreviation for prepositions az and ez, but sometimes the single abbreviated letter is connected to the adverb (?) and sometimes not."
I am never really sure how much to correct language learners because Duo does a terrible job in explaining Hungarian grammar, but in fact, it is 'e' that means 'this' and 'a' means 'that' (e lámpa is closer to me than a(z a) lámpa).
Thank you. Sorry, Those were typos. I do know that a(z) is that and e(z) is this. That's automatic because it was my childhood native language. I can translate almost perfectly from Hungarian to English but not the other way. What I was confused about now that I am learning grammar and writing was if there should be a space or not. And then the repetitions of postposition words but now I think I understand. I appreciate help from everyone.
It's all right, I just put this here so that if someone later comes across this thread they won't learn to confuse az/ez. :)
Your original question is a good one, and I would certainly follow jzsuzsi's rules, but to be honest, I see natives making these kinds of mistakes all the time...
(I also found this: http://www.e-nyelv.hu/2013-06-09/afelett/, so apparently the use of 'hogy' also influences whether it separates or not.)
I wouldn’t say that feminine occupations have been eliminated! I still say actress, and hostess, and a lot of people do!
Also, I think English might have had a separate word for you plural. I’m not sure! More archaic English often uses “thou” which is an informal way of saying you, while “you” was the formal way. If English is anything like French (which it is!) then it could have possibly also meant you all!
disclaimer: I have no idea If “you” was plural or not, I’m just making a slightly educated guess
But, even if there is no separate word, it is almost always determiniable from the context! For example: “you are actresses” one person can’t be multiple actresses! Therefore we know that it is you plural!
It does get harder to determine when you use adjectives rather than nouns, because adjectives don’t have a plural form in English. So “you are smart” can be either singular or plural.
But, even if that is th case. In real life you will most likely know whether one person or multiple people are being referred to, and if it is unclear, it’s easy to ask for clarification!
So basically, “you all” just clarifies that more than one person is being addressed :) and that’s why it is accepted. It’s just more specific. Just saying “you” will also almost always be specific enough, especially with context clues.
You could say to a group of women rehearsing a play: You are actresses, (so try to say your lines with more feeling! But seriously, in English you is grammatically plural and that's why we say How are you rather than how is you. :)
Your English is excellent Dinah, and you obviously love languages, but I'm just making a comment about current American English usage. The use of thou is actually considered to be still modern English, not archaic, believe it or not. It is still in use primarily in Christian church hymns and religious texts. Some religious sects still speak that way, but are a very small minority. A slang phrase about them, and I don't mean any disrespect for their beliefs, is that they live in "a parallel universe."