Only by English grammatical standards, and even then only when not following a preposition. It's a bad idea to assume all languages follow the same grammar.
That is exactly why "You and I" is the correct English translation. English does not follow the same grammar as German.
But we are translating it to English, so it should go by English grammar.
Because certain people believe we've signed up to be lectured at about how to speak English.
Yes, we need to report the translation (the report button). «I and you» (as we are forced to keep the word order, but not «me and you».
You and I : correct
You and me : less correct but used all the time
Me and you : not correct at all.
Du und ich: correct (if subject)
Ich und Du: not correct at all.
There's nothing grammatically wrong with "ich und du", and in fact, it's about one sixth as common in German books as "du und ich" as of 2008 (as recent as I could check), which is not at all rare – quite the opposite, in fact.
As for "me and you", it's about one eighth as common as "you and I" in English-language books as of 2008, which is on the same order of magnitude, i.e. pretty common as well.
There's a grammar argument to be made, but perhaps it's not what you would expect.
It turns out that both "ich und du" and "me and you" are legitimate here. "I and you", for its part, is rare, but it's grammatical and it does see some use.
We teach real German, and real English, not a grammarian's dream of how English should be, according to Latin standards :) "Me and you" is perfectly fine English, language mavens nonwithstanding (sic!°).
tl;dr lighten up, enjoy living language.
( ° it's a joke, relax )
"me and you" is not perfectly fine English if it's the translation of "ich und du". It's grammatically wrong and English speakers using it doesn't make it right. It just means they're using bad grammar and that's not a reason to teach foreigners the same mistake. Duolingo should teach real, correct English.
Your grammar assignment for the day:
English sometimes uses the disjunctive where German uses the nominative. Discuss.
RowenaJane, even if you don't like the disjunctive coming before the verb as its subject in English (though we should all recognize that it's common), I was thinking, for example, of a case where someone asks, "Who's in this picture?" The answer: "That's me and you." (Perhaps the picture is of two babies that the questioner doesn't recognize.)
If you agree that we don't say "that's I" in English, you might also agree that "you and I" is questionable after "that's".
But in German, I believe "Das sind ich und du" or "Das sind du und ich" would be correct.
I welcome corrections by native German speakers. In the meantime, here are some examples of what I'm talking about:
There are some other German options/constructions there, but notice the nominative in all of them.
No, sorry you are quite wrong. That is you and me, is acceptable, but me and you? No.
Surely this is not a case for the disjunctive as 'du und ich' are subjects not objects, which is another reason 'me and you' is very wrong even though a lot of people use it, it is slang not correct English
RowenaJane: verbs only have one subject in English, not several ones.
So du und ich can be one subject, but it's not two separate subjects.
Hence the use of the disjunctive by some speakers -- because the pronoun is not the (entire) subject.
Compare also verbal agreement -- "Him and me have some topics to discuss" has the verb "have" in the plural, agreeing with "we" or possibly "they", certainly not with "he".
And even if you said, say, "He and I are the main characters in the play" rather than "Him and me are..." -- the verb agrees with the (single) subject "he and I", not with either "he" nor with "I" (since I doubt you would consider either "he are" and "I are" as correct).
I sympathise and I must say I am really struggling with all of these differing comments. This is supposed to be the “basics” section of German. (Not an analysis of the English language). I can cope with some of the posts and points re the use of the disjunctive in English, but I really have to draw the line at the suggestion by Mizinamo below (normally a great contributor to Duo IMO) that “Him and me have some topics to discuss” is somehow proper English. Or “Him and me are the main characters in the play”. This is shocking to me and I can’t be lighthearted about this I am afraid, as another contributor suggested! Someone please help me to regain my love of the English language, which I have been speaking (I thought fluently, up until now) for over half a century!!!
One way to do it is to take the linguist's descriptivist stance, one that attempts to observe both common and uncommon usage and tries to understand these in context – which doesn't, by the way, mean that we have to give up our preferences or our grammatical analyses, but it's a position from which to look deeper into what happens with the language in its actual use. There's something profoundly satisfying in it, and I think it's closely connected to what brings us all to the study of language in the first place. This linguistics approach is where something like this article might come in.
And if you've got two or three hundred dollars burning a hole in your pocket, you can purchase The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language (one of the preeminent English grammars, authored by a couple of highly respected linguists) and really dig in.
Frankly, the use of objective/disjunctive pronouns in the subject position rubs me wrong too, but I can countenance that sort of casualness better than I can hypercorrection of the "between you and I" variety.
Another point, however, is that this is just Duolingo, and indeed just one question on Duolingo among tens of thousands, which is not to disparage either the system or the question, but just to say that we don't have to get hung up on it. There are differing philosophies even among the different language teams (and probably within each of them), and none of them is the last word on English usage.
Besides, notice how most people commenting on this page don't seem to change their position, no matter what anyone else says or what evidence they provide. Indeed, I suspect that nothing the German team does with this question will have much influence on the English-speaking world, after all is said and done, so you need not feel as though The Nothing is coming.
Ha! Nice one PeaceJoyPancakes. Love the Nothing story. Between you and I, me and him have to agree with you and she on the hypercorrection issue!
NO! Where do you read it's for fluent English speakers? Fluent describes the characteristics of a fluid. That is to say a fluent English speaker speaks very smoothly. You can speak fluently and make all the mistakes you want. As long as they're the same mistakes a native speaker would make. The word you're looking for is proficient.
This is "supposed to be" a German course for fluent English speakers. Fluent means using the language properly.
You are correct, Marian. This is basic German. And the German phrase we are given has the nominative case first and second person. The nominative case (subject) first and second person in English is "I and you." All the arguments for when it is appropriate to say "you and me" in English are irrelevant, because all we know about the German phrase is that it is the nominative case.
It doesn't bother me too much to hear ordinary people using incorrect English grammar, but it does bother me that teachers, including Duo authors, don't really care about grammar.
We teach real, correct English. If you want your unnatural version of English, please be free to use it yourself. Please read the link I provided above. Stop torturing people with these mistaken beliefs. Language is not a tool to make other people feel bad.
Seriously? That's your response? Because one British linguist writes a book about Latin not being the origin of English you call "our" version of English unnatural? I guess I now know whose comments and explanations to disregard. Thank you.
There is nothing unnatural about using "I" for the subject and "me" for the object of a sentence. In English we usually put second person first in the sentence and then first person, so it is more natural to say "You and I" - and that should be an acceptable translation, if you really care about translating to "real, correct English".
Real <> Wrong.
You are teaching incorrect English. Acknowledge it, fix it and move on.
Not pedantic, but it's a software, so no mean for it to know if you confuse «Ich» and «du» or not. So, even if it's not a polite syntax style , it should be «I and you».
I agree they should fix the sentence, reorder the sentence, to give «You and I», but if they don't, we have to keep the word order. As it's not possible to translate in Duo by switching word order, it would be too confusing.
German ordering is quit different from English ordering and this appears in translation
That's often true when it comes to grammar, but the choice of word order here has nothing to do with grammar in either language.
Duo simply needs to know that you know the difference between the first and second person pronouns, and if you mix up the order, Duo can't tell.
you are translating german into english, so in writing yoo have to follow english words rule and not german. It's quite simple
There's no such word-order "rule" in English as a matter of grammar per se, in spite of the strong convention of putting "I" last as a matter of euphony and perhaps politeness.
Certain habits of speech achieve the status of grammar. The order of "you" and "I" in this phrase is not one of them. The function of "and" as a coordinating conjunction is to link two equivalent things. What's on one side of "and" should have the same grammatical and syntactical role as what's on the other, regardless of their order, particularly in the simplest coordination of two terms. If you change the order of these terms, the sentence shouldn't lose grammaticality, even if it does sound unfamiliar. And in some less simple cases, as a matter of style "I" should even come first, e.g. in "I and everyone around me could hear the strange noise".
Grammar books that mention the matter tend to appeal to politeness, not grammar per se, for the so-called "rule", but they also use descriptions such as "almost always" etc., and in contrast they don't apply the same prescriptive force to the order when "me" is used in coordination with other pronouns, which suggests, as I've said, that it's actually a matter of euphony (and may still be a matter of politeness, as touted), though in a certain respect it can also be characterized as a simple canard based on a misunderstanding proliferated by poor teaching, and now having taken on a life of its own. You can read about this here:
This passage is telling:
As these excerpts show, whether through deliberate oversimplification or through sloppy wording or thinking, the advice literature often mischaracterizes the nature of a grammatical phenomenon, in this instance, pronoun case in coordination.
In another comment I've already linked to a Bible verse that uses "I and you", and here's a scholarly example:
In the end, convention and grammar are not always the same thing. And I think it would be misleading to allow the English to be entered in the reverse order of the German in this instance.
That's not entirely accurate. It's perhaps less so now than decades ago, but many grammar books do prescribe this as a rule (not just a convention) of English grammar. Rule or not, it a convention that is universally adhered to in formal writing, and following it should be accepted in translating this phrase. If the software can be programmed to accept the very not-literal "my name is" as a translation for "ich heiße" (which it does, and correctly so), then surely it can also be programmed to accept this word order change in order to comply with a well-established convention of English.
The German is also not correct! That's the whole point! You should not teach people to say 'Ich und Du' because that's horribly wrong!
Yes, this is the case. I have been with Duolingo for over a year now and it doesn't allow the words to be out of order.
"ich" meaning is "i or/and me" and "du" meaning is "you" if you follow the gramar Germany
"Ich" can only be "I" in English. "Mir" and "Mich" both translate to "me."
In english, saying "I and you" would not happen. It is considered incorrect by every english style guide.
This question really isn't about style; it's about translating what's given, and showing Duo you know what means what.
It would usually (though my references on this page suggest not always) be considered bad form in German, too, to put the first-person pronoun first. So if you have trouble translating the words as they're given, consider yourself to be honoring the bad German form with bad English form (but not bad grammar, in either case).
I and you may disagree with one another, but style can be subjective, and it's not the same as grammar. (And your claim of "every English style guide" is probably impossible to substantiate.)
Granted, "I and you" is extremely uncommon, as I've said in other comments, but the idea that it "would not happen" is demonstrably inaccurate. Here, for example, is a Bible verse containing "you" and "I" in a coordinated pairing, in different versions, a couple of which (including modern translations) put "I" first, in spite of the general tendency:
And here's an example of a scholarly work that uses "I and you":
The way it's used there suggests that intended emphasis (read: style) can play a role in dictating that the unconventional order be used.
And "I and everyone around me heard the strange noise" is another example that demonstrates that "I" simply doesn't in fact have to come second.
So this is about translating incorrect german sentences into equally incorrect english ones? And how is that supposed to help people learn good German?
My suggestion was about helping someone come to a certain understanding and acceptance. Ultimately I'm not really on board with the idea of "good German" versus "bad German" for this expression, as I take a more descriptivist approach and have found legitimate examples of "ich und du" out in the world, but I'm glad to have learned from mizinamo what the conventional word order is.
The accepted translation is poor English, but you do hear it sometimes in casual conversation. I find it annoying, though.
We have to report with the report button the «me and you», the correct English should be «I and you».
Both me and you and I and you are used by native speakers -- the former probably more frequently than the latter, in fact.
(I'm sure you know all of this but I felt like getting on up on my soapbox about this pronoun pairing.)
"I and you" is extremely uncommon word order, so it's not exactly a fair comparison (if it's the simple comparison between the two options that you're making). In terms of word order, "me and you" and "you and me" are about equally palatable. Not sure why.
As for "I and you", in the absence of any context it's still a better representative of the German here, I'd say, in spite of the uncommon word order. The only thing to say about it grammatically is that in context "me" might be considered preferable to "I".
Typically "me" would be considered grammatically preferable to "I" in the position of object or as a disjunctive. "Me" is also the correct subject complement (which may itself be considered disjunctive), notwithstanding the old canard of "it is I", which misguided grammarians seized on in the olden days but which never really caught on as an absolute rule, and today no one says without tongue firmly planted in cheek.
Schoolteachers, who are invariably terrible at grammar, often indiscriminately tell their students that only "you and I" is correct, and "you and me" (or "me and you") is always wrong, but that's another canard, the result of which being that these days many so-called "educated" or "careful" speakers use "you and I" even in the object position, whereas if their eyes are opened to the fact that "John is coming with you and I" is just as silly as "John is coming with I", they have to admit that they've never really thought for themselves about grammar. (Some, represented on this comment page, admit nothing.)
For some reason, though arguably not technically correct, "you and me" (or "me and you") in the role of subject is more tolerable than "you and I" in the role of object. Perhaps it's because "you and me" as subject sounds merely casual (and a case can also be made that it's just the conscripting of the disjunctive into a new role), whereas (whatever rationalizations are made about phrases acting as joint objects etc.) "you and I" as object sounds like the general grammar lunacy that unfortunately continues to plague the populace, with no end in sight.
I have never in my 51 years in all 3 English speaking continents heard someone say "I and you". Sorry but never, not even in a bad movie. Me and you, yes but it's bad grammar.
Granted, "you and I" is far more common than "I and you". However, below is a link to a Bible verse in different versions, some of which use "I and you/thou", even though most use "you and I". Also note the use of "between me and you" or "between you and me" ("me" being an object of the preposition) in the same verse.
And here's an example of a scholarly work that uses "I and you":
For more on the subject, see this linguistics paper:
"I and you" sounds wrong because we usually hear "You and I", and there are many circumstances in which "me and you" or "you and me" would be correct. However, Duo has not given us a sentence in which we can determine that "you and me" is appropriate. They only give us two German pronouns that are always used in German in the nominative case - so it is baffling to me that so many people would think they could use the objective case in the English translation. Awkward or not, we should translate in the same word order and in the same case. Duo could simply change the word order of the German sentence and stop all this useless discussion. In basic language "ich" = "I" and "du" = "you".
I am a native English speaker. I was taught the correct word order is " You and I" ( is the subject) and " You and me" ( Is the object).
The best way to figure out if you should be using " you and I" or " You and me" is to take away the " You and" from the sentence, and see if the sentence still sounds correct with just I or me.
Example: John is going hiking with you and me.
This is CORRECT grammar.
Removing the "and you", Shows that the following sentence is correct.
"John is going hiking with me. "
However, the sentence would NOT BE correct if you had used " You and I".
"John is going hiking with you and I."
Removing " You and",
"John is going hiking with I. "
This sentence is INCORRECT.
" You and I are going hiking with John."
Again removing " You and",
"I am going hiking with John."
But if you say :
"You and me are going hiking with John."
and once again remove "You and", then the sentence reads:
"Me is going hiking with John."
Which is grammatically INCORRECT. I hope this helps.
That's essentially also how I choose between "I" or "me" (or it used to be, as now it comes naturally).
But no one has provided a grammatical analysis to support "you and I" as the necessary word order.
And I doubt anyone will, or can.
You explained it very well, S.Heller! I remember learning that in school, too!
S. Heller, you're right! I was taught to use the same test (drop you and), and it's a very easy way to remember whether me or I should be used.
I am also annoyed at the misusage of you and I (i.e.: He gave the candy to you and I).....
I, through unfortunate circumstances, only attended school through the fifth grade, but have enjoyed continuing education through informal means, and DuoLingo is one of those means. Not only am I learning several new languages, but I get to add to my repertoire of English (my second language) through the fantastic discussions about word usage. :D At forty three years old, I have the privilege of proving that 'it is possible to teach an old (er) dog new tricks'. ;D
But in grammar books, they say it's not correct. I'm not a native, so maybe I misundertood something. I would be intereste if you could paste links with grammar explanations. Thank you in advance.
Many conservative speakers consider this incorrect, especially older ones.
Grammar books for foreigners often teach slightly older language.
So I'm not surprised that your books may say that this is "not possible", even if it's something that many native speakers do use.
Don’t listen to them Perce. The grammar books are correct. If you continue to heed the grammar books and just use Duolingo to try to practice some lovely English and German words and sentences then all will be fine. Don’t let the “Me done it” brigade take over
"Me and you" is NOT correct. You say "you and me". Me, I, whatever, always come second, for heaven's sake! And it's the same in German!
There's nothing wrong with "me and you". It's extremely common and native speakers have no trouble with it. "I and you" is much less common, but the proscription, if there can be said to be one, isn't a grammatical one.
"ich" is nominative, and "me" is accusative. "Me" is sometimes (but never correctly) used in the nominative, which is where the "me and you" translation comes from. But I can't in good conscience translate using the words provided.
The correctly translation is "I and you" though the correct word order should be "You and I."
"I and you" should perhaps be the default here (though not the only option). That said, what exactly is your complaint? Was "I and you" rejected? Or is it simply that you can't countenance the example translation, even if "I and you" is also accepted?
(Other commentary on this page addresses the issue of "me" as a disjunctive.)
My disagreement is with the only option of "ich" as the translation of "me."
If you're asked to translate "me and you" into German, I think "mich und dich" should be an acceptable option.
But if you're only given "ich", for example in a put-the-words-in-order question, it's not that "ich" is necessarily wrong, given the disjunctive use of "me" as a complement in English, where (as far as I know) German would use "ich". This is something for you to look at in the other comments here, if you're interested.
It's not the obvious solution, though, and it requires a bit more explanation, which, I think, is why it strikes people as wrong at first blush, and why people don't like it.
I chose "I and you" (which is not correct in English), but DuoLingo accepted it as 'correct'! HA!
Does German normally use the first person pronoun in the first position, or, like English, should the first person pronoun follow the other pronouns ("ich und du" oder "du und ich")? Also, is there a rule on capitalizing pronouns? Ich vs ich, Euch vs euch. It would be confusing with formal you (Sie) and she (sie oder Sie).
In German, it's considered more polite not to put ich first in a list -- you may hear Der Esel nennt sich immer selbst zuerst if you do so. So du und ich is more polite than ich und du.
The polite/formal pronoun Sie is always capitalised.
The pronouns du and ihr are optionally capitalised in letters and the like.
ich is never capitalised (except at the beginning of a sentence).
I put "I and you" (which was accepted) because I know how literal Duo can be; however, it went against the grain to do so. For politeness' sake I would always write "You and I" in English (although I'd probably say "Me and you"). I was pleased to see that German prefers the politeness of putting "I" last also. Good manners cost nothing but make the world run more smoothly.
Please don't say "me and you" if you know it is not good English! Others are listening.
Please don't condemn "me and you" when you know it's intolerant! Others have feelings.
I agree with Donovan if somebody wants to say "me and you" that's their business and somebody wants to say "I and you" that's their business.
The first person pronoun comes last in German as well as in English. Duolingo is doing a bad job here, teaching incorrect German word order.
This is misleading as you've stated it (and it appears to be reasonably common word order in German), but in any event we've all heard it a hundred times by now. The concept is unclear in exactly no one's mind. No one is going to go around completely unaware of this idea. Why all the panic?
Why not revert to the correct/most accepted/standard/usual/polite word order in German then? That would put an end to the whole discussion.
If it had been that way from the beginning, we would have learned less. (Perhaps you haven't learned anything, but some of us have.)
One learns by making mistakes and correcting them. Sticking to one's mistakes doesn't make sense. The person who wrote this exercice made a mistake and doesn't want to recognize it. Too bad for the learners here.
There are many ways of learning. Some involve listening to others, and most, if not all, involve opening the mind. The world isn't always what we want it to be, but now that we're all totally clear about this exercise, perhaps we can move on.
Everyone, please stop discussing that "I and you" would be "more correct" English. This is based on a mistaken belief about English how grammar, or language, works. We will not change this sentence to cater to this belief. End of story. You're welcome to use it in your own life as you wish.
"Ich und du" is not a sentence. These are simply three words. At the basic learning level, it is important for students to learn that ich = I and that mich and mir = me. At some more advanced level of learning ENGLISH, it is appropriate to discuss the circumstances in which English speakers would use "me" in the nominative case. The student needs to learn that German requires the nominative pronoun "ich" even though English would accept the normally objective pronoun "me" in the nominative position, for specific circumstances only. This complexity should be taught in the ENGLISH course. If this exercise is intended to inform language students of the circumstances/idioms in which "ich" can be translated to "me," then the words should be presented in a context where that would actually be the case. For example, you could present a phrase such as "ich auch" and accept the translation "me too" along with "I also" or "I as well." When you present the words without context and then allow any translation, without an explanation of when the translation works or doesn't work, students are more likely to be frustrated than enlightened. For this reason I concur with the other student who said this exercise should be dropped from Duo.
Actually "Me and you" can be a sentence. "Who's going to the mall?" The answer? "You and me!" The rest of the sentence is understood. How 'bout some English sentences without explicit subjects? "'Bout time to eat!' , "Changed your mind?", "Didn't feel myself last night!" "Glad to hear it!" Any of the intrinsic elements of a sentence can be implicit. Half the Russian language is implicit. An Italian can go years without using a subject!
Yes, and these are called "minor sentences", as opposed to "major sentences", which have an explicit subject and predicate.
So, would a command "Shut the door!" be a minor sentences? Seeing as it doesn't have an explicit subject? Guess, I'll have to read on to find out. Thanks, for the reading!
Yes, according to this article:
no irony, please. words should only be used as they were intended. this is all too important. there is room for levity. there is no room for satire.
"Ich und Du" is a not only a short sentence, it is an INCORRECT sentence.
Aside from the question of whether "Ich" can be properly translated to "me", there is the valid question of word order. If Duo is focused on conversational language, without regard for classic literature or modern formal writing, then why present a word order that is very rare in both languages? If you are compelled to keep these words without giving context, then why not change the order to "Du and ich"? What, pray tell, is the purpose of presenting a phrase with word order that is rarely heard in either language and thought by some to be either grammatically wrong or impolite in both languages?
Many people have given examples of when "me and you" is correct. But there is no context in this exercise to indicate that those examples apply. I seriously don't understand why there is so much discussion about this. The German phrase is very simple "ich and du". How can this be construed as disjunctive or any other justification for changing the case?
You're right, there's no context, which is why we can't say for sure what the English should be. I've said repeatedly (in different words) that I think "I" is the clearer path as a simple direct translation here, but it's interesting to me personally that a legitimate grammatical case can be made for the "me" translation, and it's caused me to think and to explore the differences between the languages in this regard, which I've enjoyed sharing with others, who may also have a similar interest in understanding the different possibilities. You've made it clear that this idea doesn't appeal to you. Different strokes.
I agree with PeaceJoyPancakes, I have learnt a lot about both languages through this thread and it certainly stimulates debate. However, I also agree with most of what territech says and I believe it (translation of ich und du) would be better placed in a high level of a language course because it does expose differences between the languages and also the use of English in the spoken word v the written word.
Sorry, I missed this before my last post. Time to lock the discussion down?
If you were to translate it correctly, and follow proper grammar, the translation would be 'you and I' or 'you and me'. You always put yourself last in grammar. Please change this for goodness sake!
It's syntax, not grammar. But they should teach the polite form.
Syntax is grammar! However, I agree that the order is a social convention. In German and English it is impolite to put yourself first. Mizinamo quotes "Der Esel nennt sich immer zuerst". So "me and you" is both grammatically incorrect and impolite. So should translate the social faux pas or correct it?
Wow. When I learned German, I was taught that “me” is “mich” not “ich”. “Me” is the objective of “i”. “mich” is the objective of “ich”. Edit: there is a comment below that I don’t know how to use the “reply” function,so I’ll reply here. There is no need for context. The German is perfectly clear. Both “Ich” and “Du” are the subjective declension. The accusative version would be “mich und dich”. English doesn’t distinguish between subject and object for most nouns except some pronouns. Even “you” is the same for subject and object. However, for the first person singular pronoun there is a clear rule on the difference between “I” and “me”.
Why the fuss? This is put in an early lesson in German. New users will be annoyed and more likely to give up, thinking, “if they are wrong about this, why should I trust the app?”
[You should be able to reply simply by clicking/tapping "reply" at the bottom of my comment instead of "edit" at the bottom of yours.]
Maybe it depends on the context, in which case I'd like someone to provide some contextualized examples of "ich und du" being appropriately translated to "me and you".
Without any context, I think you're generally correct, except that "objective" is perhaps not nuanced enough to describe the German, which has a more robust case system than English. "Mich" is typically called the "accusative" form.
Response to your edit:
Distinctions can be made between the English subjective and the German nominative, so be careful not to equate them too readily.
But the issue that I was getting at is that where English uses a disjunctive "me" as subject complement (e.g. "it's me"), which is the same as the objective form, German may very well still use the nominative, or, if you like, the "subjective" (e.g. "das bin ich").
So in answer, for example, to the question of "who's in this picture", while in English it would be perfectly correct to say "that's me and you", in German perhaps we might say that "das sind ich und du". (I welcome corrections.)
In other words, your view may be overly simplistic. This is why it would be helpful to hear from mizinamo or another native speaker of German, not to mention a good idea not to take it for granted that one language has the same rules as the other.
I've already stated my view elsewhere on this page that in the absence of context "I" is a better translation here, but I would suggest again that context really does matter.
I do understand the principle, but in practice, no one says that without tongue firmly planted in cheek, and contemporary linguists/grammarians tend to deprecate it, though one place where it lives with less turbulence is before a relative clause: "It was I who took care of Dad in the year before he died." But the vast majority of people would still use "me", I'd aver.
Well, complement (from "complete"). I think that's called an "identity."
I think Duo should scrap this one , it is causing too many issues and one German speaker said it isn't polite to put' ich' first anyway and you just cannot say 'I and you' in English!
It seems to pronounce 'ich' as 'ish' which isn't correct...
I thought "ich" meant I. But in this sentence "ich" means me. Why is that?
Because English and German grammar is not identical.
German keeps subjects and objects pretty strongly separated, while in modern English, many speakers only use the form "I" when that is the single subject of a verb and is directly in front of the verb, and "me" in all other cases -- not only as the object of a verb but also as the stand-alone form ("Who wants a cookie? Me!") or when it is part of the subject but not the entire subject ("Me and Tom went to a party").
the audio doesnt sound right. it is too fast and sounds blurry. it sounds like this: "byondyoo"
Which is immaterial here. This is just an exercise.
But you can listen to it being sung here:
And perhaps you can ponder whether there's any discernible poetic basis for the writer switching the regular order as you follow along with the lyrics:
Or instead you can opt to lose yourself in an old German comedy:
Or, if Shakespeare's more your cup of tea, you might delve into Julius Caesar and come upon the words of Antony in Act 3, Scene 2:
O, what a fall was there, my countrymen!
Then I, and you, and all of us fell down,
Whilst bloody treason flourish'd over us.
Sometimes the line is written without commas, e.g. here:
Then I and you and all of us fell down, [...]
Wait, a second Shakespeare? Might as well quote Santa Claus! Secondly there's a comma between the "I" and the "you". Yeah, so there's that...
Only the one Shakespeare that I'm aware of, not a second one.
Edited now to provide a link to an example of the text without commas.
Cite any text you want, mythical author or no. The authorship isn't the point.
I'll concede it wasn't the point, but sometimes the argument devolves into the groundrules of the argument. If you concede that I'm free to cite a mythical figure then we can move on. But don't complain in the future if reference Hengist and Horsa.
If Hengist and Horsa are somehow relevant, I'm sure I'll consider such a reference with a fair amount of interest.
Do people actually say "I and you"? Wouldn't you rather say "you and I"? I'm a "me and you"-man myself, but don't let that stop you!
I'm all for colloquialisms like me being the nominative form, but it's incorrect for it to say "you and I" is wrong. Accepting both is completely understandable, but it doesn't and I find it weird that it doesn't accept the answer that's formally correct.
It was "ich und du". "You and I" reverses the order. douLingo doesn't like the word order reserved.
'Ich und du' is not correct German to begin with. Should be 'Du und ich'.
Do native speakers make the T sound in the word Und even if it's followed by another D like Du? I mean, do they say it as Unt-Du or Undu?
When I speak at normal speeds, I don’t make separate /t d/ sounds there.
It's the polite form, but in this case, they have to change the German order as well.
I have this portion and it just says "click the microphone" and repeat ich and du. I have been yelling it but the mic doesn't pick up any word. So confused, I am able to use the Dutch Duolingo just fine and all of the other microphone parts work.
Deactivate your microphone in the option, it's better. Report any technical problems in the general forum, instead of the sentence grammar forum here.
If John wants to say that Paul sees John (i.e. himself), he will use a first person pronoun and say, "John sees me".
But here, in this exercice, I believe there's a grammar error, it's not «John sees me» (accusative», it's (stressed pronouns (or its equivalent). English uses «I» as a stressed pronoun, when French uses «moi».
Many natives told me I have to say «You and I» (a more polite form), but not «Me and you», as it's isolated pronouns, and the typical stressed form (or its equivalent) in English. That's not correct?
English uses «I» as a stressed pronoun
That is not true -- at least not as an absolute as you imply.
Some native speakers use I as a disjunctive pronoun, under the influence of explicit education and classical grammar, but many native speakers use me instead in their natural speech.
Usage here has changed over the years, much as with the disappearance of whom in favour of who.
If you ask a group of people, "Who broke my camera?", you will be much more likely to hear "Not me!" or "It wasn't me!" than "Not I" or "It wasn't I".
Thanks for your explanation! So, I'm very confused now, very different from what I've leant and always hear. What do you think about my link?
The order is confusing between German and English polite form.
Your link seems fine, but it's true what mizinamo says about the disjunctive form. English uses "me", not "I", in spite of what (some) old grammar books (used to) say. The people who wrote them were trying to apply the rules of Latin and other languages to English.
Your comment seems self-contradictory to me, because first you say "English uses 'I' as a stressed pronoun" and then you say that "me and you" are "isolated pronouns, and the typical stressed form". The latter is correct, not the former.
"I" and "me" are both first person. One is subject, the other is objective.
"Me" is always first person. But it is the object, not the subject, of a sentence or clause.
Question- In german is it grammatically correct to say either 'Ich und du" and 'du und ich'
Grammatically correct, yes, as in English it is grammatically correct to say either "I and you" or "you and I".
"I and you" may be bad style, but any problem there might be is not in the grammar.
Similarly, in German it's considered more polite not to put the word ich first -- if you do put it first as a child, you might be admonished with Der Esel nennt sich immer zuerst "Donkeys always say their name first".
So putting ich second is better style there as well, but grammatically, either is possible.
"you and I" is still not accepted after the new changes today
"Me and you" is not only incorrect grammar in a nominative construction. but it is also considered impolite to mention yourself first.
"Between you and I" is wrong
"Between I and you" is even wronger - if that is possible!
"Between you and me" is correct
"Between me and you" is correct, but perhaps a bit less polite
You are correct, Bruere. Don't be discouraged by those who just like to argue. I am sure you know that "wronger" is not a real word; nonetheless, your examples of when to use "you and I" versus "you and me" are correct. In those examples the German would be "Du und ich" or either "dich und mich" or "dir und mir".
That is not only wrong and ignorant but also insulting. I suggest you go and learn English grammar before you embarrass yourself again on a website that is dedicated to philology. "WRONGER"??? Oh my goodness. You need to go to school. You and I is the only correct English here, ask any English language professor, or 5 year old.
I'll start by repeating that I think "I" is better for this Duolingo exercise, as a matter of simple, direct translation without context, so hopefully no one misunderstands me.
However, I challenge you to put the question of whether only "you and I" is ever correct to an actual live English language professor, and come back here with the answer you get.
Until then, we can start with this post from Oxford, which points out that "between you and me" is the correct form:
Digging a little deeper in relation to this Duolingo example, ask yourself, do you say "it's me" or do you say "it is I"?
If you say "it's me", you might have to concede that there are places where English uses the disjunctive objective form of the first-person pronoun ("me") where German uses the nominative ("ich"). In other words, there's a contextual argument to be made.
As for "you and I" versus "I and you", if you think the order is a grammatical problem (as opposed to a problem of style, politeness, or formality), you're probably mistaking familiarity with grammaticality. The function of "and" as a coordinating conjunction is to link two equivalent things. What's on one side of "and" should have the same grammatical and syntactical role as what's on the other, regardless of their order, particularly in a simple pairing of two words of equivalent syntactical status. If you change their order, the sentence shouldn't lose grammaticality, even if it does sound unfamiliar.
Sometimes grammar isn't intuitive, even to native speakers, no matter their lifelong speech habits. It's not about mere feeling or familiarity, and it can require some actual analysis. And it's most certainly not simply what our elementary school teachers told us.
But this isn't about whether it is EVER correct to say "you and me" or "me and you." It is about whether it is a correct translation of this short German phrase. The beginner needs to learn that "ich" is used in the subject part of a sentence and USUALLY in English "I" is used as the subject. Just because there might be some advanced circumstance where English might use "me" instead of "I" doesn't make it an appropriate translation when we have no information that such a circumstance exists.
"me and you" isn't proper english, but im wondering now if "ich und du" is proper german.
"me and you" is grammatically fine in English, but it is considered bad style by many to put yourself first.
ich und du is grammatically fine in German, but not as polite as if you would put yourself last.
The feelings that putting yourself first seems to evoke in people seem to be a lot stronger among English speakers than in German, though. (For example, this flat-out saying that it's "wrong" or "grammatically incorrect" when the "problem", if any, is not one of grammar but rather of style or usage.)
Could you provide a context where the more obvious "ich" = "I" translation would be wrong? I've made my own suggestion elsewhere on this page, but maybe something more official, from someone with your proficiency in both languages, would help.
Notwithstanding the lack of specificity of Cam562569's comment, my sense is that people have much less of an issue with the order of "me and you" in English than with:
- the fact that it uses "me" instead of "I", which they think is wrong in a coordinated pairing with "you", in any context;
- the fact that "ich" is translated as "me", which they also think is plainly wrong; and
- the fact that even if "I and you" is accepted, the order for that expression (as opposed to for "me and you", which, in my sense of the matter, is pretty much as palatable as "you and me" to native speakers) is almost unheard in English (even if it's not grammatically wrong).
It's weird that the order should matter more to people's sensibilities when "you" is paired with "I" than when it's paired with "me", but it seems to.
It is not. Proverbially not. 'Der esel nennt sich immer zuerzt'. If you don't want to sound like a donkey, say 'Du und ich'.
I actually like the idea that I could sound like a donkey simply by moving words around. Donkeys may disagree.
That what the proverb says... if a donkey disagrees, he should lodge a complaint with the Sprichwörteramt.
In this course, yes.
"Thou" is considered archaic and not part of the language level this course is aimed at. Things such as "Thou comest" and "he hath" are not accepted by this course.
It's interesting, though, that "thou" (along with "thee", "thy", etc.) was the singular/familiar/intimate second-person pronoun in English, now dropped in favor of the plural/formal "you", so Buber's "Ich und Du" was arguably properly translated to "I and Thou", though the archaic sound of "thou" gives it a pseudo-formality these days.
On this subject you and me just disagree. Nobody thinks about this more than me, but what's it to you how somebody speaks? I thought we all were suppose to be liberals (implied tag)?
It's also important to understand the principle of live and let live. This is a liberal tenant. Don't worry about what you're brother is doing. Finish your supper!
Just wondering why "you and I" is incorrect, but "me and you" is correct.
Is it a grammatical thing I'm missing? Thank you
It's the order.
"you and I" has the listener first, then the speaker, but the German ich und du has the speaker first, then the listener.
So you should translate ich und du as "I and you" or "me and you" -- and du und ich would be "you and I" or "you and me".
Did it not accept "you and I"? Did you try "I and you"? duoLingo doesn't like you switching things around. Maybe try "du und ich".
Duo likes you to match the order given. Otherwise it could be assumed you think "ich" means "you".
Could be assumed, but not REASONABLY assumed. A fella could assumed anything.
What's a reasonable expectation of understanding for beginning language learners?
Even with years of experience I get "ta" in French ("your") mixed up with "ta" in Chinese ("he", "she", or "it"), if I'm switching back and forth between the languages in a short amount of time, and I've seen similar confusion with other words and other languages expressed many times in the comments.
I'm sure that I'm one of many such folk here, but I'm an ESL teacher. I will not accept this. "I and you" IS correct English and is what the translation should be. If someone says to me "Me and you are going out", I would cringe as would most people of even moderate education. I is the subject pronoun; me is the object pronoun. I demand that this be changed.
The problem is "you and me" is a compound subject. You can't take it separately. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disjunctive_pronoun
Let's remember we came here to learn German not to listen to somebody else tell us how to speak English. This isn't your Electronic Sports League. Dr McWhorter has a special message for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0un4TcKPppY In any event cringing won't hurt you none! I think this is about all help I have for you this session.
I came here to improve my German, not be corrected by a website with incorrect knowledge. "Du und ich" is "You and I". "Dich und mich" is "you and me". One is a compound subject, the other a compound object in English and accusative in German. This is an error, and it should be fixed. If you didn't com e here to listen to someone else tell you how to speak English, why are you responding to my comment on the message board? This is the ONLY reason why anyone would be on THIS board.
If you want to say "I and you" more power to you and good luck to you. My only objection is when somebody starts hating on the English disjunctive pronoun. I leave you with Vincent Gardenia's thoughts on teaching English: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tDBvfgAbo8
I'm all for lighting up, Marian. Live and let live. That's my motto. Peace & love be with you!
For a start, "hating on" is an appallingly negative concoction of modern American English. I don't "hate" "you and me". "hate on" there's a phrasal verb that I hope dies a death very soon and doesn't survive its slot in the zeitgeist. There is a very real distinction between I and You—or You and I for flow—and Me and You. This is about teaching correct language. If someone were to translate 'du und ich' into English, they would naturally translate it into the subject of the sentence, which in English is 'I and you' or more easily 'you and I'. It is not 'you and me'. To say that 'you and me' is acceptable is the same as saying not to worry about using the indicators when changing lanes just because many people are too lazy or too ignorant to do so. Then again, you said 'hate on', so I suppose that anything goes with you.
Because this is not an entire sentence -- it's just an isolated phrase.
There is also no punctuation at the end.
English and German do not have identical grammar -- it's not always possible to translate one English word by the same German word (or vice versa) in all contexts.
I put me and you and still got marked wrong, because I entered a period. Why did I enter a period? Because a previous answer marked me wrong for not including punctuation. Please be consistent Duo.
Proper English dictates putting third or second person first such as: You and I or you and me or Hans and I or Hans and me, Depending on part of speech, subject or predicate. Actual usage varies.
it is ok that it is free, but don't make those kind of mistakes, get good German teachers and English teachers too.
This question is more nuanced than it seems at first blush, and the potential learning is deeper.
You have a couple of options. One is that you can go on at your current level of understanding, which is good enough – you'll get by – and another is that you can look further into the matter, perhaps starting by reading some of the comments on this page.
No, I disagree. I came here to learn German not English. Learning or practicing English is a perquisite. That's great. Nobody likes perquisites more than me. (That's read more than me.) I learn Portuguese from Spanish. Killing two birds with one stone. In which case the Portuguese should held to a higher standard. The Spanish is a bonus. At most we need a good German teacher and a good exemplar of English. I don't need no English teacher telling me how to English!
I have the same case here with Portuguese. The similarities in almost everything really helped. Conversation-wise... sigh I try my best.
No -- "You and i" is not the correct answer (implying that there is exactly one correct answer).
It's not even a correct answer.
"I and you" (with capital I) is a correct answer.
"me and you" is another correct answer.
Both are accepted here.
"you and I" has "I" capitalised correctly but with the words in a different order from the German sentence. That may be considered less polite, but it's not grammatically wrong.
The audio won't play for me to type it as a translation, I'm not seeing how that is fair, maybe it is a bug or something, I am doing level 5 test of basics, thanks :)
Hey Hud. With a name like Colm Breen this guy knows what he is talking about. He does not have to sweat the small stuff of you and I
I watched it all and didn’t notice any me and you stuff going on. I will watch again. Fascinating to see the Bing thing. Have a very happy white Christmas Hud and duothething and Mizinamo and Dr John and all the DL nerds!
Correct grammar in English is you and I........maybe the Americans say me and you but it is incorrect
I am American and I can confirm that Americans don't say "I and you", but they do say "me and you" without regard for whether it is the subject or the object of the sentence/clause. And they do so with great regularity, not limited to the appropriate use of the "disjunctive" as has been suggested in this discussion. I guess in a few more decades we will completely eliminate the concept of subject/object and just use the same pronoun for both. This goes well with our growing use of pictures instead of words, learning to use a calculator instead of learning basic arithmetic, and not learning how to write with pen and paper because we always have our phones. It's an evolution of our culture as well as our language.
just a different way round
Exactly. So it's not quite the same thing.
Miz. Stop defending the me and you brigade and start defending the English language. We need you on our side. It is not easy with the Americans trying to attack from every side. Not least the bastardisation of the English language. You and me need to get in the trenches with hud and start to retrench and shove them all off.
I'm just amused that you're talking about "defending the English language" and then use "you and me" as a subject.
Which would be perfectly fine on this course but which would make conservative speakers shudder in horror.
(For what it's worth, I think that adding "I and you" to this course in this order is likely to cause more trouble than it's worth, and I wouldn't have added it myself. If that makes you happier.)
i'm happier, thanx. i've noticed that it's decidedly hard to get good video of people using "me and you", but it's also hard to catch 'em using double negatives. my theory is that these media types get it drilled out of 'em. i mean i KNOW people use double negatives on a daily basis. that is to say i don't guess a person (in the anglosphere!) could go through their day without hearing a double negative used at least once. that's my assertion. don't like it? get your own assertion!
because duoLingo doesn't allow reversing wordorder. we've all agreed that totalitarianism is fine in regards to grammar. it's a bed we've all made now we have to sleep in it.
No, it should be "Du und ich", and the translation should be "you and I" or "you and me". Duolingo has reversed the normal word order.
Duolingo, please would you remove this from the course, it's a nonsense to put a phrase in which causes so many problems to people!
There's actually something to learn here about both grammar and linguistics, and Duolingo's conception of this question promotes that learning for those who want it, even if it does bear some explanation.
That some people are intellectually or psychologically incapable of grasping the concept, or at least accepting it and moving on, isn't really Duolingo's fault. However, I suppose removing the question would make it easier on the moderators, and maybe it's something better suited to advanced learners who are more interested in linguistic nuances.
Some of us do appreciate the puzzle, but I can understand why not everyone does.
The only thing I have learned from this dicussion has to do with the "disjunctive" in English, which has no relevance to this exercise whatsoever. This does nothing to help me learn German.
You learned that "ich und du" can be translated "me and you". Someday you'll appreciate that.
It's not bad grammar, even if it would be considered by many to be bad style (though given its apparent commonness in German, surely this wouldn't apply to all circumstances).
But I suppose you don't think much of Martin Buber:
Or German comedy:
Or this German song, sweetly sung:
What problems exactly is causing you? Doesn't it accept "I and you"?
That's just how I feel when it tries to make me to say "he and I". Ever think somebody might actually say "I and you"? I used to think that nobody would ever say "That is he." But since I have been paying attention I've noticed people saying it. I caught June Brown saying it. Maybe there are people somewhere saying "I and you". Seems your true beef is duo's word order inflexibility. But look at me telling you how to rant!
It is just a different word order...
"me and you" is incorrect in English, and "Ich und Du" is also incorrect in German.
You don't say "Ich und Du", no more than you say "I and you". Du und ich.
"Ich" is never used in the objective case. It is always the nominative (subject) case. The subject in English is always "I" (except in the disjunctive if you are really advanced) - which is not applicable to this course.
If one were to ask the question: "Who's this in this picture?" The answer in English might be: "You and me." in German presumably that would be "Du und ich". Sometimes English uses the accusative case where German uses nominative.
Sorry, reversed those. For pedagogical reasons duoLingo doesn't like reversing word order. Try "I and you".
But that is NOT correct, neither in German nor in English! I/me/ich always come last!
I and everyone here can read and reread this sentence as an example of how that isn't true.
I have no objection to "you and me", although "you and I" is more correct - but I definitely consider that teaching people to say "Ich und du" is wrong because that's both incorrect and boorish. This is about teaching good German, isn't it?
No, no, absolutely not “another correct answer”! Ich = “I”. Mich= “me”. Do not be swayed by the illiterate horde! Note: I am not bothered by the word order issue, as it is mostly a convention, but by translating ich as “me”. (shudders in horror).
Sometimes it has to be. Instead of being part of the illiterate horde, read my comments to understand when.
Sorry— when I was talking about the “illiterate horde”, I was referring to the people, like some of my students, who routinely say “Me and Jim went to the store.” This is not correct, and never can be— yet to have Duolingo accept objective “me” as a translation for the subject pronoun ich is essentially the same, and not permissible in any sort of standard English usage.
I did read your comments. Thank you.
That's just it. It's not accepting objective "me" as a translation. It's accepting compound subject "me and you". In any event this isn't your classroom. This is douLingo's classroom. You're disrupting the classroom!
Oh, 2GreyCats, you have managed to disturb the illiterate horde. Nobody likes to be called illiterate especially me and him
My apologies. With that expression, I was attempting to be somewhat facetious, and clearly I muffed it. However, that being said, “me” cannot be a subject, even as part of a compound subject. To quote Benedick, “that is the opinion that fire cannot melt out of me—I will die in it at the stake.” Yet, in a fixed expression such as “That’s me”, or ‘it’s me,” it’s not quite so egregious.
in this room english is just a mere dialect. ain't nothing egeegerous or whatever you said. i'm here to learn german!
because duoLingo doesn't like you changing the wordorder around. so if it gives us "lightning and thunder", "gentlemen & ladies" or "dad & mom" that's our tough luck.
Why its not "I and you"?
That is also an accepted translation.
That is what I learned that "Ich" = " I"
English and German grammar are not identical, so "=" does not always work perfectly.
why is it soooo specific?? if we were in Germany wouldn't they know what we mean???? You and i is proper english and it means the same things as me and you!
Can DuoIngo please stop this circular argument about the use of the disjunctive in the English language? I know that it is interesting and creates conflict, tension and discussion, but it is emphatically not helping any of us to learn German!
If Duolingo had said 'mich und du' I would have written 'me and you'. However, it didn't. Rather, it wrote 'ich und du', which in English is 'I and you'. This is a compound subject. 'me and you' is the object. Therefore, 'ich und du ... trinken Kaffee' might have been a logical sentence. In English, this is only 'me and you drink a coffee' or "more politely" 'you and me drink a coffee' if you lacking in English ability. This is Duolingo, where people come to learn languages, and if they're native English speakers, I pretty much guarantee they won't say "me and her are going to the shops". You might, but we recognise that as, dare I say it, ignorant. This answer to Duolingo's question is wrong. It should be amended. And no, I'm not "hating on" you. I just completely disagree with you.
Hey Hud you are missing all the fun we are having with sitting and seated and sitting myself down stuff. You should leave the ‘you and I’ and ‘me and you’ stuff and join the true grammarians
Duo could easily stop this debate and help everyone learn by simply changing the German phrase to "Du und ich". This would make it a more useful phrase for German students (because the phrase as given is impolite and we shouldn't use it) and would eliminate the confusion over the correct translation. Since they have chosen to use what some consider an impolite phrase in German, then it is appropriate to use a correlating impolite phrase in English. I don't understand why Duo won't change it to make it more helpful. It makes me wonder if their priority is teaching the language or generating useless discussion.
There is a "du und ich." It's just like this one only reversed. Anyway I don't think it's all duoLingo's fault if some people get all exercised about these. Players gotta play! Fussbudgets gotta fuss!!
People take exception to duolingo teaching them bad German, that's all.
Yes, you are right of course, but this is now become a question of ego, and as you well know, 'ego' comes before 'tu'.
This is really simple; in English, the other person comes first, every time. It has fallen off in the last 20 years because we live in the age of narcissism.
That's generally considered more polite and better style than "me and you" -- but it's not as good a translation from the German, I would say.
(In German, too, du und ich is considered more polite than ich und du.)
If 'du und ich' is considered more polite in German why on earth is duolingo causing all this agro by putting such a phrase as 'ich und du"?
I came here this last time to give Lingots to people who took the time to find references that support their comments, including those with whom I disagree, and to delete several of my own postings, which express opinions stated by others. (The discussion doesn't benefit from redundancy.) I have given an "up vote" to comments containing useful information (including those that state an opinion different from mine) and "down votes" for comments that do not pertain to the translation of these two basic German words.