Yeah, “du und ich” should only be “you and I”. “me” would be “mich” or “mir”, depending on the case.
mich is the accusative case -- used for a direct object. (The person who is directly affected by the action of the verb, more or less.)
mir is the dative case -- used for an indirect object. (For example, the recipient of giving.)
So in this example which one should I use? or it is not clear since the sentence is incomplete?
None of them. Although "you and me" is a frequent sentence in english, it is grammatically incorrect. The proper sentence would be "you and I", which translated to german would be: "Du und ich"
The usage of cases is slightly different between German and English in this regard. Perhaps previously it would have been considered poor English to say "you and me", but these days it's acceptable. German remains strict.
It's not a matter of which one is correct English; it's a matter of which one is the correct translation. "You and I" and "You and me" are both correct English, but they mean different things and are not interchangeable. "I" is a subject pronoun, and "me" is an object pronoun.
"You and I are going to the movies tonight!" - Correct
"You and me are going to the movies tonight!" - Incorrect
"Dad bought movie tickets for you and I!" - Incorrect
"Dad bought movie tickets for you and me!" - Correct
'You and me' is only correct, in this context, by virtue of the preceding preposition, 'for', which gives an indirect object its dative case. The lack of inflection, in English, renders this more difficult, so that the necessary prepositions are often elided, causing misunderstanding of the pronoun's case. 'He' is subjective, but 'him', prepositionally qualified when necessary, subsumes all other cases. German can avoid this by its inflections.
It is still considered poor English, even though it may be rampant among speakers who can't distinguish between subjects and objects.
Very profound Thomas. “I”. You can’t go wrong with that one. Non committal. Hud will like that one. Revolutionary
"You and I" is the correct way to say it in english. It is true "you and me" is used more often, but it is not correct. I suggest both the right and wrong phrasing should be accepted to accomodate both parties.
“You and me” is acceptable to moderators on Duo Lingo. And people who want to change the grammatical rules in English. They can’t get away with it in German so they are trying to mangle the English language instead. I wonder why they haven’t tried to ‘correct’ your sentence “to whom” as being incorrect and old fashioned and not the way people talk.
Shakespeare writes "between you and I" which implies a hypercorrection. It implies a disjunctive nature to the English pronoun even then. My question is: do Germans have issues with "zwischen dir und mir"? Do they sometimes say "zwischen du und ich"? I would guess not as German pronouns aren't disjunctive. There is no inclination to hypercorrect.
What evidence do you have that "you and I" is of older usage than "you and me", as subject mind you?
Ah Hud, me auld mate, you are still here lurking in the shadows and trying to change the world! Good stuff. I have no evidence whatsoever, but if I manage to get some I will post it here. Is you happy with that?
Its probably better to understand this as how you are tought in school. You are taught correct English in school and how grammar changes between written and spoken english. Unfortunately we now have to compensate for 'Americanism' example Gaol, is now Jail. The way we speak should not dictate the way we write
What wouldst thou say? "thou and I"?
This use of "you" (objective case of "ye", which is plural) for singular objects really should be resisted.
That deserves a lingot. )) Although really, we have abandoned many declensions when it comes to the word "you" during the middle English period. There is a word to describe the phenomena of the reduction of grammatical case distinctions in language throughout time. And it is considered an evolutionary phenomena of language. But I can't remember the word for it.
"You and I is correct". "You and me" is wrong grammatically as "me" can never be a subject pronoun. It is rather illiterate of Duo to perpetuate this solecism, but, in addition, wrong to teach such incorrect grammar to learners not having English as a first language. It has taken me several years to correct this form taught to my English grandchildren!
Yes. That should really be the main accepted answer. The fact that this sentence doesn't even start with a capital letter suggests that maybe this is an old sentence that was deleted or something?
You certainly can, and it is the only, grammatically correct, answer. Duo is, however, not listening.
"You and I" is the only correct translation. Duo goes for the slovenly and incorrectly ignorant, "you and me". No matter how often this may be pointed out in reporting, no attention is paid. At least, the German is correct.
the words "du" and "und" sound struck together. is it fluency or is it a mistake
Is the Duolingo German team ever going to fix this? "you and me" as translation of "du und ich" is abominably wrong, no matter how many times you hear it said by English speakers. I get that language is a living thing and changes over time and perhaps ten years from now it will be accepted as an expression, but today it isn't and you will find plenty of sources that it's grammatically wrong. The exercises containing this incorrect translation really need to be removed!
Please don’t speak too loudly monkey47 or you will attract some people who want to ‘educate’ native English speakers and get us to adopt poor English! In a previous level there was huge debate about this exact point (they were talking about it being the disjunctive in English etc). Actually I noticed that you contributed to that thread also.
Nobody is asking you to adopt "poor" English. Just asking you to be accepting of diverse believes. Diversity is sacrosanct.
You have got to be kidding hud!! Are you trying to stir it? Again! Diverse beliefs are great, they create an opportunity for discussion. Diversity is not sancrosanct and certainly not when learning a language. I would expect a language learning site to uphold excellebt grammar and high standards in a language. After that if people want to speak in dialect, in slang or with non standard and in my view poor (that is a mild description) English grammar, then let them off having fun and mangling the language, that is fine. Whatever about posts and contributions from participants suggesting alternative and diverse possibilities, Duo should not allow low grammatical standards in their own answers. Sorry, will get of the soapbox. Anyway, is the purpose of this section of Duo to help people learn German or is it to re-educate native English speakers? It will be interesting to see if the English course favours the use of English such as “You and me are going to the store”. If so, they are not doing the learners any favours. IMO.
"Diversity" in this case is utterly irrelevant and certainly not sacrosanct (if ever it is). EVERY language has reasonable and rational rules that allow its speakers to communicate with precision and clarity via known and agreed upon forms and meanings. When rational rules of the language are not followed, even by a large portion of native speakers, it only introduced confusion and linguistic impoverishment. Such is the case with widespread incorrect expression of "you and me" as subjects.
Man, I really suck at hearing this one... Even slowed down, my brain keeps registering "they said bread" when they most certainly did not
"You and I" would be grammatically correct, if it weren't for the fact that German speakers point themselves out (in a pictures) as "du und ich" and English speakers point themselves out as "you and me". Also it's syntactically correct to end a sentence in a period.
You and me (as subjects) - WRONG, CARELESS, LAZY, IGNORANT.
You and I (as subjects) - correct, logical, beautiful English. And i am NOT a native English speaker.
I guess it doesn't hurt you to let other people speak in their traditional manner.
It doesn't hurt me, no. It hurts the clarity, precision, and richness of the language being so mutilated by "traditional" ignorance.
When I answered "Du und mich" for you and me, it was marked as "incorrect" yet "ich" is "I" in German ... So why would "mich" be incorrect?
du is in the nominative case, mich is in the accusative case -- you can't combine those two together with und because they cannot perform the same function.
It would be like "him and I" or "he and me" -- "him and me" would be grammatical (e.g. "Mary saw him and me") and "he and I" would be grammatical (e.g. "He and I saw Mary"), but there's no occasion where "him and I" or "he and me" would fit.
Similarly, dich und mich could work and du und ich could work but never du und mich.
No -- "You and i" is not the correct answer (implying that there is exactly one correct answer).
It's not even a correct answer.
"you and I" (with capital I) is a correct answer.
"you and me" is another correct answer.
Both are accepted here.
Incorrigible. I really like you Hud, but you are really trying. And I mean ‘trying’ in the non American sense.
Well, don't get exercised about it. Mind your bloodpressure. Look at that I compounded the word blood pressure!
It really sounds like shes using a "buh" sound at the first. Its confusing
That translation is also accepted if you wish to use it.
Out of curiosity. Are there any more links between German and Norwegian? I have noticed du a few times and know that in both that can mean you. Just wondering if the two languages are closely tied?
Both German and Norwegian are Germanic languages -- they both evolved from a common parent language we call Proto-Germanic. English is also related to both of those languages, though sound changes sometimes obscure the relationship a little -- the cognate of "du" is "thou" with a changed first consonant.
Norwegian belongs to the North Germanic family, a subset of the Germanic languages that also includes Danish and Swedish.
English and German belong to the West Germanic family, together with Dutch, Afrikaans, and others.
"you and me" is not correct English. The correct English is actually the more literal translation, so it should be used as the answer.
Ok, so in this question it asks to match words to translate "du und ich". However the only pronouns given by Duo as an option are "you" and "me", which is not a correct translation. "Ich" is nominative first person pronoun, which matches "I" in English. This type of error adds to the confusion around learning nominative/accusative/genitive/dative.
mightn't you turn the wordbank off? and type "i" by hand? that's what i do when duoLingo confronts my pet peeves.
I agree CarlFisk. Don’t mind hud’s pet peeves. He is a pest peeve, although a very nice peeve. You stick with “I” or “i” and you and me will be fine. (I mean I).
i disagree. if you're too lazy to type yourself and choose to use the wordbank. then you've made your choice. if your principles take effort (a la turning off the wordbank) then don't come crying to me if that's too much effort.
I prefer the sarcastic and ironic and clever hud to the toughish terrier that has arrived. Must be a new year thing. Happy new year from you and I
he's free to do as he wishes. just suggesting he might turn the wordbank off. i got nothing against being lazy or complaining. lord knows i love to complain. i just don't like listening to complaining. anyway it was nice of you to use "you and i" incorrectly on my account when you know "you and i" oughtn't never be no object.
I do love you hud, even though you haven’t got a clue how to speak the English language. Nobody uses ‘ought’ these days BTW
that's the same thing you said about "innit". i bet can find 6 post 1990 non regional speakers using "ought" by July 1st this year of our Lord 2019.
i don't think "ought" is archaic at all. it's just verbal. were you to need it in writing you'd use "should".
You see you automatically assume, (and we all know what that does) that I am using the web site for Duo. However I use the App which does not provide the capability to turn off the word bank. I would if I could. It is certainly not a point of being lazy. (However I must admit I am at times). I suppose the point is more about the fact that "Ich" does not directly translate to "me", in any grammatical case. This is a fundamental point in learning this language. I don't apologise for what you see as a complaint, I see it more as feedback to the Duo team to improve their software.
sorry you've reached the complaint department. could you phrase that in the form of a complaint, please?
hey, what a second! i didn't assume! you only assumed i assumed!! read the transcript!
New post: is ‘ought’ an archaic word or is it a great word? This post is courtesy of me and hud
you do realize that "correct" English would be "This post is courtesy of me and hud"? are you pro people can trusted to make their own grammar choices? i thought you were pro everybody must speak classroom English.
Is there such a thing as a German language troll who pretends to learn English so he can troll around and find nice trolley things? And if there were one (hud) would he pretend to be here or would he pretend he were elsewhere. Subjunctive.
The correct one should be: "you and I" because this is correct in english
Also, in "correct" English the names of languages are capitalized. With Sentences on the other hand you have the option of finishing with periods or fullstops.
You can't mix your object pronouns and your subject pronouns in German. In English it's a matter of contention.
Is it? I don't think that "him and I" or "me and she" are natural for anyone.
The best one is when they refuse to say "I and you"! Your choice is "I and you" or "me and you". I haven't seen anybody squirm more since Hobson himself. Ha, ha, ha, ha!!!! Ah, good times, good times!
It depends on whom you ask.
Traditional grammar requires "you and I", yes.
But many people now most naturally say "you and me" -- the language is changing. To many people, saying "you and I" will sound old-fashioned, unnatural, and/or "talking like a book".
This course follows that change and uses "you and me", though it also allows "you and I".
Is there a difference in enunciation of "ich" between Bavaria and Northern states?
Firstly, much is not a German word, and even if you meant mich, it is not in the same case as du.
You could have du und ich (= you and I -- subjects) or dich und mich (= you and me -- objects) or dir und mir (= to you and me -- indirect objects), depending on the function of those pronouns and the implied verb.
Wer hat ihn gesehen? Du und ich. (Who saw him? You and I [saw him].)
Wen hat er gesehen? Dich und mich. (Whom did he see? [He saw] you and me.)
Wem hat er Bücher gegeben? Dir und mir. (To whom did he give books? [He gave books to] you and me.)
"You and I"
And this isn't a sentence -- there's no verb and no period (full stop) at the end.
Since "me" is accusative case, it can only be "mich". "Ich gehe" would never be translated "me go". Could this be another example of English as mangled by Americans?
Calling "me" "accusative case" may be confusing -- the old dative and accusative cases merged into a single objective case, which might be a better name. "me" could equally well be mir, for example (He sent me a letter = Er hat mir einen Brief geschickt.).
Secondly, we're not talking about "me go" -- no native speaker says that. But something like "him and me went to the store" (where "me" is not the entire subject) is quite possible.
And finally, Duolingo's "English for speakers of ..." teach American English, and the English used on Duolingo's "... for speakers of English" is American English by default. (Welsh is the main exception that I can think of; it uses British English by default.)
If you consider American English something "mangled", then perhaps Duolingo is not the right site for you -- you may prefer something that consistently uses your own variety of English, whatever that may be.
No, I'm not.
Whether you like it or think it's the end of Western civilisation as we know it, that's the form that is natural for many native English speakers, and "he and I" for a combined subject for them might as well belong to the same register as "forsooth" and "methinks".
Are you familiar with French? French is considered the height of sophistication. Friedrich der Große loved French. All things French. They use disjunctive pronouns. You know they taught Holly Golightly French to improve her English. Maybe that'a help you with disjunctive pronouns.
An Englishman you say? Mightn't you use the metric system? Maybe you're more French than you think. In America we use English units. Keepers of the faith. About all you have left is your pint of beer. Sad really....I mean you're great and all, but don't try to make off that you're more English than an American.
Ah, hud, where is your acceptance of diversity now?! Leave the poor (possibly) Englishman alone. I believe he was speaking tongue-in-cheek. Anyway, if he is English then he is obviously ‘more English than an American’. It doesn’t mean that he speaks better English, of course.
Come back to me when you know the difference between the verbs to lie (recline) and to lay!
This app offends me. Apparently the correct grammar (you and I) is not correct?
“You and I” is also an acceptable translation here.
Correct Hud, Duo Lingo is is great and so are the more colourful characters and contributors who frequent it!
That is very gracious of you to accept that the correct translation is ‘an acceptable translation’!!
There are very often multiple correct translations, so speaking of “the correct translation” as if there were exactly one is often a mistake.
“A correct translation” is often more useful, using the indefinite article.
That's right. The correct grammar is now incorrect. The shoes on the other foot now! And the first shall be last. An English grammar isn't gospel. If your eyes offend you pluck them out!
Ladykracker schreibt ihre A's so. Es muß ein deutsches Ding sein! Schreibst du eine Sieben mit einem Stab quer durch den Stängel?
What about it?
That's grammatically possible if you are talking about direct objects of a verb, for example. Wen sieht Julia? Dich und mich. "Whom does Julia see? You and me."
In the context of your example, it is correct.
BUT in the context of the current example from Duolingo, which has no context and presents the two pronouns as subjects, correct translation must be "I and you", with first person in first position being poor etiquette, but not incorrect grammatically.
I couldn't understand this :o
usted is Spanish. You'd use it to speak to one person respectfully/formally. "Mr Smith, can you help me?"
du is German. You'd use it to speak to one person informally. "John, can you help me?"
They both translate into English "you".