"I am trying not to look at her."

Translation: Snažím se na ni nedívat.

[zubkov318]

Are both verbs here translated with the "se" participle? "am trying" -> "snažím se", "look" -> "dívat se". But the answer has one "se". Is there any rule that allows that?

[VladaFu]

So in this case you can have two "se" if you want: "Snažím se nedívat se na ni."

[BoneheadBass]

Another interesting "feature" of Czech! :-)

My answer -- snažím se na ni se nedívat -- was marked incorrect. Is the word order wrong, or is it a missing alternative? (I've reported it)

[VladaFu]

I think we just omit the second se instead. Or use the word order in my previous post.

Notice the examples from the handbook all have the second se after the infinitive.

[VladaFu]

There is a paragraph about that written in Czech in http://prirucka.ujc.cas.cz/?id=580

'Two verbs with "si, se" can meet in a single sentence. We can't find the rules for omitting or keeping one of them in grammars. Usually, when two of "se" meet, we omit one of them if the meaning is not changed by that, but it is not necessary, for example "přinutili se smát (se), všichni se snaží vrátit (se)". If the omitting changes the meaning, both pronouns have to be kept: "snažím se nezlobit se (nebýt rozčilený = not to be upset) × snažím se nezlobit (e.g. nezlobit = not to misbehave)".'

V jedné větě se mohou vyskytnout dvě slovesa s výrazy se, si. Pravidla pro vypouštění či ponechávání jednoho z nich v mluvnicích nenajdeme. Obvykle sice tam, kde se ve větě setkají dvě reflexiva se, jedno z nich vynecháváme, pokud tím nedojde k narušení větného významu, není to však nutné, např. přinutili se smát (se), všichni se snaží vrátit (se). Pokud by došlo vynecháním jednoho se ke změně významu, je třeba obě zvratná zájmena ponechat: snažím se nezlobit se (nebýt rozčilený) × snažím se nezlobit (např. nezlobit rodiče).

[Renardo_11]

Meanwhile this is explained in the notes, with several examples.

[Janmunroe]

So... If ji/ni is to be in the "second position", in this case would "snazim se" be considered the first and "na ni" the second? Hmmm... I know the "divat se na" is a unit but we can drop the "se" since it's redundant after "snazim se".

[AgnusOinas]

These pronouns are so-called inconstant clitics, i.e. they want to be in the second place when they are not stressed (first or last place), but they have less "muscle" than more "stubborn" clitics like "se". Here we have "Snažím" first, then "se" together with "na ni" share the second position, with "se" having priority.

"Snažím se nedívat na ni." is also possible and accepted, with "at her" very strongly stressed. (Someone was wondering if I'm trying not to look at him, and I need to emphasize that it's her that I'm trying not to look at.)

"Na ni se snažím nedívat", also possible (currently not excepted), but uncommon - Oh you mean her? Well, as for her, I'm trying not to look that way.

If we add "já", we get "Já se na ni snažím nedívat", with the same pattern, "já" first, then the second position cluster with "se" firmly there and "na ni" trailing at the end of the second position.

[ken55414]

Since I am trying to eliminate my typos, mám otázku, do all infinitives loose their long á 's (psát, dívát) when they become negative (nepsat, nedívat)?

[VladaFu]

Dívat is not a good example, it is just dívat and nedívat.

But psát, hrát, prát, brát, (srát) all do this. But then you have bát-nebát, zrát-nezrát, vlát-nevlát which do not shorten the á.

And then the ones that and -ást: krást - nekrást

I think all those that do the shortening, at least those I listed, are either class I, paradigm "brát" or irregular, like psát.

But that is without any warranty, I didn't study anything about it. Check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czech_conjugation

OK, I have found some linguistic resource, but it is about alternations in general and it is WAY too complicated https://digilib.phil.muni.cz/bitstream/handle/11222.digilib/124480/SpisyFF_401-2011-1_8.pdf

[ken55414]

Sorry to ask all these questions, I am enjoying learning Czech and I really appreciate your help. But I am also desperately looking for short cuts/consistencies, so I have another question.
I have just looked ahead to the tips and notes for past tense. Can we assume that the same verbs that shorten in past tense (bral, byl, pil, psal, spal, znal, etc) also shorten to form negative infinitives (nebrat, nebyl?, nepit?, nepsat, nespat?, neznat?, etc.)

[VladaFu]

No, that's why the document I linked is so complicated.

[ken55414]

Thanks for the document, at some point I hope I am ready to attempt to read it. But I did look at it and I bet if I did a word search, there would be many words like často and někdy, but no words like vždy and nikdy. Thank you again for your help.