Crown system resets all skills to Completed: 0
I just clicked on the invitation to switch to the new Crown system.
I'm level 20 in Norwegian, and most of my skills were golden.
But now, all my skills are reset to "Completed: 0".
See the green box in this screenshot:
As a result, the health of all skills is also zero (grey circles).
Edit: this solves the problem!:
I don't mean any disrespect, but it seems you are dodging the question. And, I have to agree with the OP--they have effectively lost all of their progress. I share that frustration. I think the crown system could be great, but I don't want to be forced into it, and it really sucks to have lost months of progress. Please, please advocate for a way to revert the system, or to toggle it. I love duolingo, and for now just want the strength bar system.
vocabulary, usage, grammar learned = progress
circles on a computer screen changed this or that color = circles on a computer screen changed this or that color
To the extent that the later motivated the former, great; I bet numbers on circles on a computer screen will have much the same effect in pretty short order.
Luis said in another thread that they're actively working on a test-out system that functions with the skill levels with the hopes of making such issues more manageable. This sounds like a more-than-sensible idea, and I hope it comes quickly. Given how little translation into the target language there has historically been and how much more there might be with the introduction of skill levels, it does not surprise me that the data to ascertain a level of mastery commensurate with level five simply wasn't in the system as yet.
Interesting. When my tree was migrated, I could tell that they didn't have solid user activity info. (The classic user metadata that enables customization.)
I sincerely hope that the new tree has some of this basic block and tackling in the backend system(s).
(NB: I'm a recovering data architect. Ran a data requirements/design group for a large internet company. That user activity info is a must-have.)
I didn't mean just that the data wasn't recorded or accessible but that it simply never existed. For example, in my Dutch tree I don't think I ever got more than one or two translations into Dutch in a practice session. Given that, of course Duolingo can't know whether I could still do well when having 10 or even 15 such translations in a row.
@piguy3 : Understood re: translation into the target language. That was my biggest concern re: the previous system.
I was referring to a different kind of user activity info.
When my ladder was upgraded, I got the odd sense they they were tracking my activity at the "sentence" level, not the "sentence-skill" level.
(I can see the reason, since a sentence may be used in more than one skill. But as a data designer, I would have suggested a different approach.)
If true (and I am not asserting that I'm correct) ... that would complicated their data migration.
But that's an outsider's POV and I certainly am not suggesting that I know what's inside of DuoL's data and/or the challenges of the switchover.
I have empathy for the challenge they were facing.
[Again. My sign-off re: no complaints.]
(Adding as a note to myself: sentence-skill-xdirection)
But isn't the point of Duolingo the gamification of language learning? So that you aren't motivated my wanting to learn the language, but instead by the dopamine "hit" you get after seeing you bars go up? When I would turn one of my skills gold, and and know that it wouldn't come up in practice, my brain said "Yes! You're doing great!" and would relive some of that sweet sweet dopamine. It kept me motivated. Now, with the new system, I don't get that. Without it, there's no reason to learn. Hell, maybe I'll give up on learning German altogether!
It is foolish to expect someone to redo -- 90 -- golden skills (each with 6-18 lessons, times 2).
Why do i need to redo all the silly beginner ones??
The crown system was supposed to encourage new learners,
but this really demotivates advanced learners.
Look at this tree that took 2 years to make gold: * times 2.5 long.
Duo will need to come up with a smarter mapping algorithm if it cares about its long-term users.
I'm with you! I have 5 golden trees I just refresh every day to keep my memory sharp. No way I'm doing hundreds of lessons I've already done, including the 'Ich bin eine Frau' beginner stuff.
Nothing against the crown system, I love the idea, but it seems crazy to effectively make us redo the whole tree.
very nice trick with just one picture which captured your scrollable tree! How did you do this?
But hardly readable those little yellow crown numbers ;)
Q: When you hit the "upgrade now" button, have there also been set some skills to crown level 1?
If I read the screen numbers correctly (I try hard!), it is a mix between crown level 3 and some skills being set to crown level 2 (or do I read the "2 numbers" wrong) for your tree?
Why level 2 for a few skills?
What is "special" with those skills when you are a long-term member?
Crown levels 4 and 5 are definitely missing - not even ONE single skill is set to those numbers!?!
I'm also going through the same problem! I gladly clicked the crown setting, thinking that it would show some points alongside your fluency report and might even increase it, but instead, I find that all my work is undone! And I didn't finish half the Spanish course in a day's work! Hopefully with all the complaints, Duolingo will look into this issue.
Sadly, I disagree.
a) The conversion is "eating" progress. I'm an example of this.
I had finished my tree several weeks ago and had been keeping my tree golden. In fact, I was doing extra general strengthening work because I like to practice. And I had bookmarked all of the verb tense lessons and strengthened them even if the skills were golden.
When my tree was converted to the crown system - 9 out of 78 skills were set to zero progress. They were set to level 1, zero lessons completed.
That suggests that something is amiss. I can understand folks' disappointment.
b) So far (and I've earned ~2,300 XP points on the new system in the past 24 hours), I've encountered very little "new to me" content. And I've brought some of my skills to level 4, some to level 5.
If there is gobs of new content which justifies how most of my skills were set to 2 (some 3) ... I've not seen it yet.
c) I'm hoping that the extended content will begin to surface, soon.
The reason why is because right now the new system feels like was designed to get more engagement w/out more content. (More adverts served/human participating)
That usually doesn't work out well.
Ah, great that you have posted here already.
Just wanted to link your other well-documented comment in the other thread: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/26612939$comment_id=26653600
The new tree set me back to zero on 9 of the 78 skills, which felt a bit odd. Some of them are skills I know I strengthened, even when they were gold.
Should anyone be interested, the 9 skills set to zero experience are: (Prepos. 3 / Pluperfect / Subj. Pre. / Education / Imperative / Science / Transport. / Economics / Sports)
I have been working on one of the skills which was set back to zero. I recognize the majority of the sentences, so I don't understand why I got bumped back down to zero.
I have a sense of humor about the nine skills being set to zero (I grinned when I saw that the "subjunctive present" skill was set to zero, but the "subjunctive past" skill was set to L2.)
(This is a repost because I don't know how to determine a comment ID for something I've posted. Original thread here: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/26653164)
I did some mental math this am and I suspect I've figured out how the levels work.
(I again repeat that I am not complaining. I'm just trying to figure out how the new system works.)
As everyone has experienced, every skill has a different # of lessons at the bottom layer.
French Basics 1 has 4 lessons
French Basics 2 has 5
French French Food has 7
And the max # at any bottom layer is 10
Here's what I think is required for the subsequent levels
Level 0: as defined by DL
Level 1: the same as L0
Level 2: 2x # at level L0
Level 3: 3x # at level L0
Level 4: 5x # at level L0
(Level 5 = done): you have completed 12 times the number at L0
So putting that in terms of specific skills on the French tree....
Level 0: 4 lessons
Level 1: 4 lessons
Level 2: 8
Level 3: 12
Level 4: 20
(Level 5 = done): you have completed 48 lessons, earned 480 XP
Level 0: 7 lessons
Level 1: 7 lessons
Level 2: 14
Level 3: 21
Level 4: 35
(Level 5 = done): you have completed 84 lessons, earned 840 XP
French Places: * Level 0: 10 lessons
Level 1: 10 lessons
Level 2: 20
Level 3: 30
Level 4: 50
(Level 5 = done): you have completed 120 lessons, earned 1,200 XP
If my thinking is correct, then to take the new structure to 100% gold at L5, with no repetition ... that implies 43,200 XP.
Should anyone wonder: here's my work
Thanks for this! Gave you a lingot in the other thread.
How long (i.e. how may questions) are there in the practices that one does to move through the skill levels? Are they the standard 20-question ones we've had?
In my experience it's taken me a bit under 25,000 XP to work through a tree in a new language thoroughly (the trees I have accomplished this for are not among the longer ones on the site), and that's with the preponderance of the translations into the tree base language, so doubling it doesn't immediately strike me as wholly out of line if at the higher levels there's a lot more translation into the target language. However, my XP counts include a preponderance of timed practice, which I understand (and much lament) to have been greatly restricted in the change.
BTW, you can get the comment id # by using inspect element and then scrolling up a few lines. For example, the URL for your last comment is https://www.duolingo.com/comment/26648699$comment_id=26669014 You just have to get the URL for the discussion and then append "$comment_id=" and the number from inspect element (which here looked like "body-26669014"; you just need the digits)
piguy3: Haven't studied length/lesson just yet, but it is on my list. The other thing I want to look at is the ratio of French-to-English v. English-to-French in each level.
Right now I'm looking at how the "general strengthening" process interacts with the new incentive system. (I'm quickly developing an opinion.)
In another thread I saw someone say there were 8-10 exercises per lesson, so that would keep the exercise / XP ratio about the same as it has long been for timed practice.
(a heads up that I included info on linking to individual comments in my last comment if you hadn't seen it; how well it works depends on the thread and browser eccentricities it seems like)
Thank you for the time you have put into trying to figure this out! I have a number of classes of students that I encourage to use Duolingo, and the gamification aspect is a big part of what keeps them studying on their own time (above and beyond what I require in class or for homework), so it is especially important to me that we make sense of it. I gave you about 10 lingots on this post and about 50 to your original post in the hopes of bringing more attention to the issue. Thanks again.
Reply to speising, side note: I still find it somewhat odd/amusing that my "Present Subjunctive" skill was set to L1/0.
I know how many times I re-enforced/practiced that skill, even when it was golden. My method was to reinforce it and the "Past Subjective" as a pair, so in theory ... I should have nearly the same repeat count for both skills.
But, my "Present Subjunctive" was set to L1/0, my "Past Subjunctive" to L2/0.
And I should note that I'm a recovering software type, so I take all of this in stride. I'm not in complain mode. Just noticing some odd bits about the transition.
Edit: fixed typos. I hadn't adjusted to the idea that there is an L0.
piguy3: Present and Past Subjunctive are basically the same length at base(L0). Present has 3 lessons, Past 2. And I'm pretty certain I reinforced the PresSubj more frequently.
Data transforms can be challenging, so I have empathy for the DL team.
The good news is that I have a sense of humor about all of this.
None of the info in my brain has been lost!
Reply to W-Ruggles-Wolfe and anyone else who would like to comment.
> I know how many times I re-enforced/practiced that skill, even when it was golden. My method was to reinforce it and the "Past Subjective" as a pair, so in theory ... I should have nearly the same repeat count for both skills.
I don't have the crown system yet, so I my be totally off base, but . . .
It used to be that "peeks" and wrong answers would (or seemed to) subtract points from a score. The only way to maintain a months-long golden skill was to complete it with no wrong answers or "peeks," especially in timed practice. Is that how you finished the subjunctive skills, or did you make errors or peek?
@All: on which screen is the crown buy-in switch located?
@slogger: I've never used timed practice. And of course I made mistakes (grin).
I would guess that I was fairly consistent re: my error rate across skills. So it is a mystery why the Subjective and the other eight were set to L1/0.
If in the backend, there was a 'score' that indicated I needed more work on the Subjective, that skill should have been screaming at me to practice it. It wasn't.
None of this bothers me.
I used to run an enterprise data design group, so this sort of thing is brain candy to me. How logging and meta data are used in transforms can be an art form.
Hard to believe this, that course contributors have ALREADY added "far more content" in the last months for crown levels 4-5.
The contributors may do so in the future....
The real truth is, as being told before, that ALL the content / sentences was / is there already, but highly UNUSED (unmapped) in translations, etc. especially if sentences are longer or more complicated.
I can't remember the thread but a course moderator has replied to me and confirmed my issues on the web portal (when comparing to Android app tapping) and different sentence results.
Before with the old system somehow there was a "filter" (because of metrics), which did not use those added DB sentences on the web portal for typing, but either
a) only on the Android app for tapping
b) or in the web portal with multiple choice
The available content of the courses doesn't change with skill levels; that's up to the contributors (they may be motivated to add more difficult content; they may not).
What's supposed to change in the short run is that as you advance through the skill levels the difficulty rises through the selection of different exercise types: more translation into the target language, for example. Sure, you've probably got a handle on this for the earlier skills just owing to their simplicity, but in all my time with the Dutch tree I've gotten only a smidgen of translation into Dutch, so personally I know I've got a lot of work to do, even in pretty early skills.
From this thread: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/26652266$comment_id=26653091
Quote Purva1405: I can tell you why you can't see crowns for languages you are already learning.
The crown's system requires to know how many times you have individually completed each skill.
That's not possible to know when you have already completed some part of your language tree
Why is that not possible to know?
DuoLingo SHOULD know what words AND sentences it has presented to you and what strength you had (for single words).
DuoLingo MUST also NEED to know if you are a complete beginner, lower-/upper intermediate or if you are more advanced.
But DuoLingo has been missing those L1, L2, L3 language / course difficulty settings for more than 1 and 1/2 year!!
Example: Look how www.bliubliu.com enabled a learner to set the native and L2 language difficulty in their settings.
It makes to me no sense that a learner is RESET to any lower crown levels if he is not a true beginner or has still not complete the tree (golden owl)!
So yes, somehow DuoLingo will have "to guess" what crown level 1, 2 or 3 you might have reached for a single skill, if you have reached language level e.g 20-25, you have practiced / strengthened for 1-1,5 years++, etc.:
Either they set ALL skills to crown level 1 completed:
This would mean that the next time you have to re-do lessons the sentences and exercise challenges get even more easy than before (especially true for reverse trees).
They try to guess crown level 2 or 3 and set it differently (e.g random) for specific skills based on some "upgrade / converting algorithm".
I am not sure if their system was really that intelligent before, to correctly "flag" sentences as seen / accomplished or not.
Well, many people complained that the same sentences and phrases repeat over and over again and more difficult content (even available for e.g web portal multiple choice, Android app tapping) was - always - left out.
And there are even NEW bugs in the system in 2018 that I am seeing the very SAME questions multiple times (repeats, even if correct) in the same strengthen session!!!
Matfran wrote in 2017 a great summary in one thread about his experiences (can't remember the title or link), that there is a maximum count of sentences.
So somehow DuoLingo had to make those available sentence from the database sequential OR random.
If you test out or do the placement test, you might not see all words and all sentences.
If you go skill by skill, lesson by lesson through your tree, you might see MORE words and available sentences.
I also believe that strengthen buttons brought up (sometimes) new sentences (and words), however those were pretty much limited as a course moderator/contributor confirmed to me in 2017 as they were reserved for special exercise challenges and were not (all) made available for typing translations on the web portal.
I would love to read an offical statement from staff how their "crown level upgrade/converting algorithm" was coded or from A/B testing moderators to what crown levels 1, 2 or 3 many skills in a completed tree (golden owl, or fully golden tree) will be converted.
Wouldn't it be VERY BORING after conversion when the mid-difficult level before was e.g three, you have all time played around with sentences for 1-1,5 years on the web portal of that difficulty and now you have to go back to re-do all lessons (easier sentences) of crown level 2???
DuoLingo MUST also NEED to know if you are a complete beginner, lower-/upper intermediate or if you are more advanced.
But DuoLingo has been missing those L1, L2, L3 language / course difficulty settings for more than 1 and 1/2 year!!
Now these must-have required informations are still missing?
How shall the "conversion algorithm" work correctly for the "Update now to Skill crown levels" button without this information???
Look how www.bliubliu.com enabled a learner to set the native and L2 language difficulty in their settings to guess similar words which you could know.
Other learning portals also have varying difficulty settings!
It makes to me no sense that a learner is RESET to any lower crown levels (1 or 0) if he is not a true beginner / starter or has still not completed the tree (golden owl)!
i clicked in the update thinking oh they are going to add more.really desapointed for all my gold skills were set to color as if i had not learn them. they makes this big update thing. we dont new this we need more content more words more vocabulary. if this is going to continue being practice again the same beginner stuff then this is not worth it. if they add more content,more vocabulary,more translations in the languague we are supposed to be learning then it will be worth it.
just wanted to ask you long-term members with completed trees (golden owl) and 39+ GOLDEN skills and 1-1,5 years+ invested time of strengthening several skills on the old system, how the crown conversion has turned out for you in the end:
Q1) Have many skills from the first (50%) half of your tree have only been converted to crown level L2, instead of L3?
Q2) Have many of you have been in the complex conversion A/B test instead of simple?
Q3) Has anyone of you with a simple conversion rule (like me) been put into crown level L3, instead of L2?
Thread: [Crown conversion BUG] Not a single L3 skill; 39 golden skills wrongly migrated to L2 for 1,5year maintained tree with "simple" conversion rule: https://www.duolingo.com/comment/26853820
With reference to my Catalan tree (fully gold, or very nearly so, at time of conversion; approx 25,500 XP):
In the bottom half of the tree I think I got 0 converted to level 3 (perhaps 1, but since I've practiced it since, I don't know where it started). About 1/3 were converted to level 1, 2/3 to level 2.
In the top half of the tree (which I had practiced much more), it looks like it was about 3/4 level 3 and 1/4 level 2.
I am in the complex conversion test group. Note for any comparison purposes that I believe the Portuguese tree is a good deal longer than the Catalan one.
My Portuguese tree (which was not gold at time of conversion) had 15 skills converted to level 3. The bottom half is mostly at level 1.
I just saw this post today, and I have explained in the post I just wrote (below, I think), 58 of my Spanish skills are back at zero (!), and my golden owl has disappeared from the bottom of the page.
I have no idea what you you mean with your question about complex and simple conversion. How do I know what group I'm in?
There are things I don't miss about the old system, e.g., my skills visibly losing strength. It seemed I was spending time to keep some skills gold when I really felt I needed to practice others.
I missed the test-out feature for basic skills, but that is back. I miss not being able to choose what group to go back and practice within a specific skill, but maybe that option will return. Also, I have been disappointed with some of the timed practices. I didn't note the specific skills where this happened, but the timed practice I did in Spanish yesterday repeated exactly the same sentences each time, where the un-timed practice had a greater variety of sentences and vocabulary.
Quote Augustine2017: I have no idea what you you mean with your question about complex and simple conversion.
How do I know what group I'm in?
See the above linked Troubleshooting thread: https://forum.duolingo.com/comment/26853820
As you was migrated into the EN-SP tree update with 58 resetted skills back to L0, I do not think it makes very much sense to do these checks now.
But you can, if you want:
- You basically just have to read your "extended user profile": http://www.duolingo.com/users/Augustine2017
- You search for the variable "learning_levels_migration_experience"
- (Crown) Conversion was either set to SIMPLE or COMPLEX
However, you might still be able to answer if there is or was any skill set to crown level L3 after the "crown update" (before the updated EN-SP tree conversion)....
Sidenote: My Troubleshooting thread and created ticket did not change anything...no reply from staff.
Maybe I will level-up some skills to L3 with the new A/B crown test-out.....
There are things about the crown system that I have liked, but I had quite a shock to day when I saw that more than 50 skills in Spanish have been reset to zero ! To add to the injury, the hard-earned golden owl has disappeared from the bottom of the page.
That seemed a bit harsh.
It does seem, though, that some new categories have been added. I don't know how many there were before. But it's hard to believe that I was set back to zero on something as basic as Greetings. As for the other categories, I probably could use the practice, so I will keep at it. At least the test-out feature is back.
You just got the new Spanish tree :)
Some people find the lost owl motivating; some people find it frustrating; but I think all find it lost. (That particular aspect of new tree versions has changed with the crown system.)
I think when they introduce any new vocab to a skill, it blanks it out. I definitely think that's something that could be improved, but, like you say, at least there's the test-out.
Yes, it's a new tree, and I'm not complaining at all, mostly responding to what others have said. It was just a shock to see so very many skills back to zero all at once.
If it didn't come through before, I love that skills and vocabulary are being added. Knowing that, it's even more motivating to go back and practice previously learned skills.
I think that the golden owl at the bottom of the page would have been a reminder that I once had completed the tree and at a time when one had to go beyond level one in each skill to get there. But frustrating, not really. The real motivation is learning the languages, and I still think that Duolingo is the best tool I've found so far.
Oops, I clarify that I meant "(That particular aspect of new tree versions has NOT changed with the crown system.)" Important omission there! The lost owl upon tree reset is independent of crowns. Granted, there weren't levels before, but level 1 is basically equivalent to finishing all the pre-crowns lessons once, which actually was the criterion for earning a golden owl before, so I actually don't see much change on that specific aspect.
I can certainly see an argument for sort of an "alumnus owl" to recognize that one had at one time earned it. Maybe keep the trophy but in a pale color, or something.